| last updated:06 Aug 2003 14:14 UK time |
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| JOS Statistics - Recent Comments (Comments added for week ending Sun 13 Jul 2003) | View Other Weeks |
| Sharecropping | Sun 13 Jul | Mike |
| http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePlace This is incorrect. Open sourcers are the ones paid like share croppers |
| Sun 13 Jul | Interesting. | Mmm. Well argued. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Troy King | Mike, his point wasn't the pay. His point was that the land you work can be snatched out from underneath you, and you can't do a thing about it. |
| Comprehensive online Geek acronym reference? | Sun 13 Jul | Mitch & Murray (from downtown) |
| A few threads down there is a discussion of HTA technology and XP. Seems like there is no way to stay on top of the latest buzzwords and acronyms, particularly if you are working in a subset of a mature technology and dont get out much (in a binary kind of way). Question: is there a _comprehensive_ online research of all known Geek software/hardware acronyms (ASP, SOAP, HTA, etc, etc) that offers reasonable definitions _and_ links to more technical & in-depth material? I bet we could all use this at least once. Primo new leads to the best suggestion. Im talking about the Glengarry leads here - the Gold Leads. ABC ... |
| Sun 13 Jul | Andy | http://www.pcwebopaedia.com Seems pretty good to me. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Mike Swieton | Not what you are looking for, but the jargon file at http://www.jargon.org is informative and amusing ;) Not great for the latest and greatest acronyms, but it is still a beautiful compendium. |
| Choosing a bugtracking package over another | Sun 13 Jul | Alex |
| Hi. My software development team (5 people) is looking for a bug tracking package. I would like to hear from you folks about your decision-making process when making your own selections. Specifically, can you tell me what are some of the good and bad things to look out for? Your advice is greatly appreciated. cheers! alex |
| Sun 13 Jul | Andrew Hurst | Ease of Use, Ease of Setup. This is yet another tool for you to use, so you don't want to be futzing around with it much. We use bugzilla where I work, and it works decent, but its not the easiest to use. A couple must-have features in my opinion * auto-update the bug when you check into source control * send emails on changes to the bug Unfortunately, the former of those two points to the ease-of-use that I was talking about earlier. I don't have the time to spend to make bugzilla fit in with our CVS setup, so it doesn't right now. I dont' want to read someone else's hack script to get it to work. I tried out FogBugz, and I like it. But we dont' run IIS where I work, so we don't use it. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Eric W. Sink | This question is kinda like going to the Oracle website and asking if anyone can recommend a SQL database. :-) |
| Sun 13 Jul | | go to sourceforge.net there are a ton of free bug tracking web apps. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | You need to know what it is you want to track and what you want to report by |
| Sun 13 Jul | Philo | We've been using FogBugz for about eight months now. I fell out of the habit of checking it, letting myself be driven by phone calls, email, and post-it notes. Last week I dove back in, and it wasn't even an 'effort' - already my life is much easier using it to track issues, bugs, etc. It even allows public bug posting or posting bugs via email (including attachments). A wishlist item - I'd like to be able to easily edit/remove the fogbugz banner from the public bugs page, since I'd rather our clients not follow the breadcrumbs back to here, where I bitch about them. [grin] One caveat (since my boss, the $ guy, mentioned it) - it's seat-license driven, so be absolutely sure you cost it right for your project. I give Fogbugz 5/5 for bugtracking and feature/bug management. Philo |
| Indian employees reject IT job working conditions | Sun 13 Jul | IT is it for me oh yes it is I love it so |
| Seems that the best and the brightest in india are turning from IT jobs since they dont like the stress, the long 10 hours days, or the poor opportunies for socializing with friends: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=569&e=14&u=/nm/tech_india_workers_dc >the dream soured for the 24-year-old when he began to see the flip side of his cool job: Long night shifts, irregular eating habits, and few opportunities to meet his old friends. >Social life is nil in such a job, as you spend 10 to 12 hours at the office at nights and then spend the rest of the day sleeping while others around you are active, said Gangadharan, who quit after two years to go back to business school. Didnt realize they had such shocking working conditions in India! No wonder theyre upset! |
| Sun 13 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Now imagine those working conditions, and being halfway across the world in America, and for basically the same pay. I would be pissed too. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Daniel Shchyokin | Um sorry to say but the are talking about Customer Service jobs not development |
| Sun 13 Jul | Homo Sapien Intelligentus | Troll. And look, a troll who doesn't know the difference between the software and call center industries. Let this thread die without fanfare... |
| Sun 13 Jul | Stephen Jones | Sound of trumpets, preferably Purcell :) Every funeral deserves a good fanfare. Call centre jobs in India are taken by people who would be earning 50-60K in the States. They only earn 7-10K but they are earning a great slalary for the country. Now, the prestige is declining, and they aren't going anywhere. And of course you can't fuck them around like you can the employees of UK or US centres. So, they're thinking twice; and the market's limited. As call centres appear to be places designed to money off Premium rate instead of having anything to do with helping the consumer, I, for one, won't regret thier contraction. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | Its not just premium call rate though, but basic services for banks, BT and the like. And given that its not all that unlikely to get a sub-continent phrased accent on the phone in the UK so long as the network holds up and the data flows no one will notice its any worse than South Shields doing it. |
| Sun 13 Jul | GiorgioG | Stephen: >Call centre jobs in India are taken by people who would be earning 50-60K in the States. They only earn 7-10K but they are earning a great slalary for the country. Where can a phone jockey make $50-60k in the USA? I did it for 3 years (got me through college) and I never made more than $21,000/yr. Please back up your claims... |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | I think he meant by their general educational qualifications and aptitude. You did it working through college, these will mostly be fairly high caste degree, or multiple degree qualified people with sophisticated understanding of english idioms. |
| ASP.NET LinkButton and leaky abstractions | Sun 13 Jul | Thomas Eyde |
| Heres a problem which burned out a few brain cells of mine. I share my workaround in case any of you should face the same problem. My problem: I use the IE5+ html edit capacity and a LinkButton to submit the form. But before I submit the form, I have to use client script to copy the content from the editor component to a hidden form field. The obvious solution is to call the script from the forms OnSubmit event, but guess what? That doesnt work on LinkButtons. This looks like an IE issue. The LinkButton is rendered to nothing more than an A-tag with href=javascript:__DoPostback(buttonName, ). It appears that IE fail to trigger the OnSubmit event in this case. Thats a leaky abstraction! We are lulled into thinking that the various buttons works the same. I am stuck with the LinkButton because I already have multiple webforms using it The workaround: It looks like ASP.NET render the href after everything else on the page has been executed. But it also checks if the href attribute is already set, and will leave it as it is if so. So create a client function like this: function submitForm(eventTarget) { // do form submit stuff here document.Form1.body.value = document.Form1.dhtmlBody.DocumentHtml; // call the original function so the server side // click event is raised __doPostBack(eventTarget,) } Then set the LinkButtons href in ASP.NET: save.Attributes[href] = javascript:submitForm(save);; |
| Sun 13 Jul | Duncan Smart | I think LinkButtons in this scenario are possibly a usability no-no anyway. On the whole, links should navigate the user somewhere (but not modify data). Buttons should carry out actions - ie, save, delete, etc. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Joel Spolsky | The ASP.NET linkButton is the *classic* leaky abstraction. It tries to make an tag behave like a submit button even though in HTML that only works about 10% of the time. There's a very good reason to use LinkButtons or their equivalent, though: on fairly complicated forms, sometimes you want to sprinkle links throughout that actually navigate to another page, but when the user clicks on one of them, you want to remember all the things they've typed so far. For example, on a checkout form: Name: [ ] Address: [ ] Credit card (choose one) [ My Visa ending in 3982 ] register another credit card |
| Sun 13 Jul | Alyosha` | DHTML + CGI is *the* classic leaky abstraction for distributed applications, period. But, as they say, worse is better. |
| Sun 13 Jul | asdf | Another approach is to use css to make a button look and behave like a link. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Philo | I like link buttons, and no complaints from the users. Duncan - I think you're overthinking the issue - do users really think that way? Or to them is it simply 'Link = button = do something' ? The *problem* (IMHO) with link buttons is pretty simple - you can't customize a browse button. It *must* look like a plain ol' HTML button. Given that, if you want consistency throughout your application, then you're stuck with buttons for actions. (FWIW, I think that's a *horrible* 'fix' for the perceived 'security issue' with browse buttons) Philo |
| colored scrollbar | Sun 13 Jul | Xtender |
| Hi! I am writing a Delphi component which must look very good. I would like to have a colored scrollbar - a scrollbar which looks like a normal scrollbar, but which the color should be different from the standard grey color. Is there any (simple) way to do this using Windows API or Delphi? Thank you! |
| Sun 13 Jul | Dave B. | You may try processing the WM_CTLCOLORSCROLLBAR message. For example: In the Windows Message Procedure of the window containing the scroll bar you would: 1. Create a Brush in the WM_CREATE message. case WM_CREATE: hBrush = CreateSolidBrush(RGB(0xFF,0x00,0x00)); 2. Destroy the brush in the WM_DESTROY message. case WM_DESTROY: DeleteObject(hBrush); 3. Return a handle to the brush you created in Step 1 during the WM_CTLCOLORSCROLLBAR message. case WM_CTLCOLORSCROLLBAR: return (LRESULT) hBrush; |
| Sun 13 Jul | Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com) | I'm curious why you have a perception that changing what users know as standard devices is considered 'good'. I cringe at IE's ability to change the color of its scroll bar. It's a terrible UI decision made by bored developers, being abused by sub-par web designers. Is that the class of people you want to associate with? People who change things for the sake of change? What's more important to you? Using something cool, or having a usable app for your end users? |
| Sun 13 Jul | Xtender | Having a cool app for my end-users. :-) |
| Sun 13 Jul | Nate Silva | Noted: the difference between a 'cool' app and a usable one. |
| Sun 13 Jul | asdf | Microsoft goes for 'cool' over 'usability' all the time. Witness WindowsXP or the constantly changing button styles in Office. |
| Sun 13 Jul | anon | Having a 'cool' app is equaly important as an usable one for all those non-IT types who doesn't know about Jakob Nielsen :) |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | Well if the colour of the scrollbar follows that of the system theme then it will be whatever colour the user desires it to be and it will be consistent with all other apps. I'd spend more time making sure that the content of your dialog or whatever is clear, straightforward and aids the user in whatever it is they're trying to do. |
| include graph generator? | Sun 13 Jul | Andy |
| I am looking for something to take a C/C++ source tree and generate an include graph, I guess in some text format. It would be nice if it processed #ifdefs. Then I would like to take the text format and visualize it somehow, i.e. be able to pan and zoom and inspect the graph, with the filenames. Anyone have any suggestions? |
| Sun 13 Jul | Matthew Lock | GraphViz can be made to do that with a little bit of coding: http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/graphviz/examples/undirected/softmaint.html |
| Photo Album Software | Sat 12 Jul | Family Man |
| Ive been looking for software that will generate a website based on all the files that Ive been making with my new digital camera. At first I looked at CityDesk, but there are too many manual steps. So far the best thing Ive found is JAlbum. You can drop a directory structure of jpgs on it, and it will make thumbnails of all the images and generate a site automatically. It allows you to control the content, look and navigation through templates and BeanScript (user-submitted samples are provided). The author presents the unederlying functionality as a bean, and wraps it in a simple java GUI, although he invites people to use the bean in a webserver based implementation. Thinking about it some more, in my extended family everyone emails pictures around all the time, but they just clog up inboxes and there is no overall organization. I can imagine a server-based system that allows an adminsitrator to set up logins so that everyone could upload their pictures and comments into a navigable site. Every Christmas or whaterver, someone could make some DVDs and send them around. Does such a system already exist? If not, does anyone think it would be worthwhile? |
| Sat 12 Jul | Andy | I think there are a whole bunch of web-based services that will let you do that. I think Kodak has one, but I've never used it. I'm sure the good ones cost money though, but setting up your own web site costs money too. What you describe seems like you will be the gatekeeper of photos. The files will have to be on your hard drive and you will have to tell the software to update the website based on those files. It seems like it would be more desirable if any of your friends or family could update the site with photos on their own computer, and I think those web-based services will let you do that. The good thing is that there is nothing to install for anybody, they just go to a website. But if they're doing massive uploads, it could be a huge pain. |
| Sat 12 Jul | www.marktaw.com | My friend always sends me stuff from ofoto.com, they may be worth checking out. As far as I can tell it's pretty much free. They make their money by selling hard copies. I think. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Family Man | Thanks for the comments. My wife posted pictures to an MSN site regularly, and the whole family learned to go there. One day it stopped working, and that was that. I know there are many such photo sites, free or otherwise. But I fear that they will go south, along with the family pictures. I'm not looking to set up a business myself. I just want to organize a gazillion family pictures so that everyone can get to them. I'd like to have some control over the layout/navigation, and total control over the content. I can't have the family history maintained on some companies webserver. Take a look at JAlbum: http://www.datadosen.se/jalbum/ I'm pretty impressed, but what else is out there? |
| Sat 12 Jul | Philo | http://www.cerious.com/ ThumbsPlus - I've been using it for years. Philo |
| Sat 12 Jul | RocketJeff | I really like 'Web Album Generator' which is at: http://www.ornj.net/software/webalbum/ It makes really nice pages and since it uses a cascading style sheet, it isn't too hard to change the layout if you don't like the ones that come with it. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Dave | I seem to be beating the IrfanView (http://www.irfanview.com ) drum tonight. It does thumbnails & contact sheets although I'm not sure if it does it as well as the proposals already given - I use it primarily as a batch converter/resizer. |
| Sun 13 Jul | anon | I used to wonder why every cell phone and pda manufacturer puts camera in thier devices. Everywhere you see it's about digital camera nowadays. If you look at the ads, it's like everybody's life revolved around taking pictures. I didn't know who took so many pictures all the time. Now I know, it you guys :) I don't even own a camera. If I have to take pictures, if the ocassion is that important, I just go and buy a disposable camera. Not that there is anyting wrong with taking pictures or anyting, this is just my observation. :) |
| Sun 13 Jul | Joel Spolsky | I've been using Adobe PhotoAlbum to organize my pictures, it's pretty decent compared to just storing photos in folders. It has a publish-to-web option that works pretty decently. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Steve H | I rolled my own.
I use batch jobs in photoshop to resize my original pictures from 1600x1200 to 640x480 and 100x75. Each set of pictures is stored in a directory like '/Pictures/2003-07-13 |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | Mine runs on Zope using the PhotoAlbum package http://www.objective2k.com/Gallery |
| random numbers | Sat 12 Jul | The Real PC |
| Im using the PHP mt_rand function to get pseudo-random numbers. Is there any reason I could possibly get a greater number of odd numbers, or of even numbers? |
| Sat 12 Jul | | yes, a bug http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=22988 |
| Sun 13 Jul | Pablo | If you want perfect random numbers use a simple cellular automata implementing the rule 30 as described in 'A New Kind of Science'. |
| Sun 13 Jul | The Real PC | Could you elaborate on that? |
| ASP.Net and AS/400? | Sat 12 Jul | Philo |
| I have a chance to work on a project that will be ASP.Net (and possibly Site Server) against an AS/400 back end (reading and writing) I know ASP.Net, SQL Server, and Oracle very well, but Ive never touched AS/400 - how much of a challenge would it be to get up to speed against the AS/400 data store? Is it just another database? Or is it like learning mandarin chinese? Philo |
| Sat 12 Jul | RocketJeff | The database for AS/400 is DB/400 - basically DB2 on the AS/400. There are several ways to access it from Windows, the simplest is via ODBC. With the ODBC driver, the fact that the database is on an AS/400 is totally transparent - it looks the same as a DB/2 database running on Windows. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Marc | Watch out for ODBC from .NET. It can be quite a bear to work with (very slow, seems to have random errors). My experience was with 2002, so 2003 might have improved it. YMMV. Someone told me there was an OLEDB driver for AS/400, but I've not seen/touched it myself. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Walter Rumsby | Working on a Java and AS/400 application right now. My experience is that AS/400 definitely has some quirks. For instance, even though you can use JDBC (the Java equivalent of ODBC) to connect to DB/400, IBM ship a Java Toolbox library (aka JT400) and recommend you use their library which provides a different set of APIs to connect to the database as standard JDBC can be sluggish. I'm still not sure why IBM provided a different API instead of creating drivers to connect to DB/400 using the standard interfaces (what ever happened to 'write once, run anywhere'?). Most troubling was that IBM support was less than helpful/knowledgeable (e.g: 'Restart the machine?') when it came to discussing these quirks. Summary: be prepared for the odd bout of head scratching and Googling. |
| Sat 12 Jul | RocketJeff | I finally remembered the driver I used when I was doing AS/400 ODBC work with Windows. My experience is 5 years out-of-date, but the product was excellent then and we received excellent technical support (hopefully it hasn't changed). We used StarSQL from StarQuest. See http://www.starquest.com/Productfolder/starsql.html for more information. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Chris Tavares | That's odd - I just did a presentation to a company about .NET and all their data was on the AS/400 as well. A couple tools I found: http://www.datadirect-technologies.com/products/dotnet/dotnetindex.asp An AS/400 managed data provider. No ODBC or OLEDB layer at all. http://www.clientsoft.com Sells software to expose AS/400 software as web services. I've never used either, but they at least looked promising. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Zahid | The AS/400 does have an OLEDB provider, as well as an ODBC one. At one point, they said they were going to stop enhancing the ODBC driver, wanting instead to focus on JDBC, but I believe the reversed that decision. I've worked with a client-server app against an AS/400 for several years, and have been pretty pleased. In terms of optimization, load-sharing and developer tools, it's a good fast platform. The few problems we have had have occurred when IBM updated the SQL engine and, suddenly, the optimizer worked differently. The fixes for that came pretty fast though :) It's also an interesting architecture, based on a single-store design. I don't understand much about that stuff though so I'll stick with the application level :) |
| Sun 13 Jul | Stephan H. Wissel | You might want to revist your development strategy.... If your AS/400 is not too old it should be pretty fast. So instead of pulling through JDBC/ODBC etc. you could consider XML over HTTP (or XML over any port you like). The downside: you end up writing DB/2 stored procedures and Java code on the AS/400 (BMC SQL Programmer was always a nice tool). The upside: Robust and fast. :-) stw |
| Sun 13 Jul | Nick | Philo, Have you looked around IBM's developer site? It has an incredible array of high quality material. Assuming you're looking at DB2, take a look at the link http://www7b.software.ibm.com/dmdd/ . It has a lot of material on .NET <--> DB2 connectivity. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Simon Lucy | Mandarin chinese isn't bad, if you don't have to read and write in it. AS-400 on the other hand sucks. |
| To jump or not... | Fri 11 Jul | John |
| Hi, I am in my 3rd job for around 13 months. My earlier jobs lasted 27 months apiece. Currently I have to put up with a very horrible manager. I interviewed with a large organization (Fortune 500) which was ready to make an offer (lesser than what I am currently getting) and a smaller role. I was interviewed by the team that had the opening. I found the people good. The interviewers repeatedly asking me why I changed jobs. I presume a few of you who visit JOS would have experienced a similar situation. What is the advice you have for me? John |
| Fri 11 Jul | Philo | Uh, tell them why you changed jobs? However, be very wary of blaming bad management. There are two gotchas here - 1) The interviewer knows someone where you work, this will backfire the comment directly onto you. 2) I think a lot of interviewers interpret 'bad management' as 'I didn't like it there' - in other words, if your cube is a few inches too small at the new job you'll be back on the market. Philo |
| Fri 11 Jul | constructive comment | Politicians never answer a question directly: '.. actually I'm interested in what you do, and when I saw you were hiring I jumped at the chance ..' |
| Fri 11 Jul | anon | Why DID you change jobs so often? |
| Fri 11 Jul | John | Bad management - that's the truth! |
| Fri 11 Jul | Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com) | Changing jobs every couple years is pretty much par for the industry. 13 months is an interesting length, though, because you've clearly put up with 13 months worth of crap... I've left jobs after 2 or 3 months (and then subsequently removed them from my resume) for being a bad fit, but after more than a year, it's hard to swallow. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Tony E | >> Bad management - that's the truth! Your unlikely to deal with that by changing jobs every year. |
| Fri 11 Jul | das gringo | You could just tell what was wrong in the abstract. What does bad management mean in the context of creating a product that clients want to buy? What, in a detached objective sense, caused the problems, and did this hit you out of nowhere when you attempted to solve the product's problems? And finally, do you believe that this new team lacks these forseeable problems, or at least empowers you to take no-nonsense steps to fix things? I've never been asked this, just fantasizing... |
| Fri 11 Jul | Justin Johnson | The polite way to say 'bad management' in an interview was that you had a 'bad fit' with the previous department. It acknowledges that it was bad management from your perspective, but that it's not necessarily 'I'm right and they're wrong.' Describe it as a long time trying to make the relationship work, followed by a choice to move on for better opportunities. Yes, it's all spin, but if you don't choke on it during the interview, you'll be fine. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Entrepreneur | Have you exhausted all options for working with this manager?
As Dr. Phil says 'we teach people how to treat us'. You sometimes have to teach managers, too.
That said, sometimes managers can't be taught.
Do you know what your manager WANTS? What's his CURRENCY?
I.e., wants his department to {save money | meet schedule | look cool | satisfy his personal needs}
If you and he have completely incompatible GOALS, then you can probably never reach compromise.
BUT, if you can agree with SOME (or one) of his GOALS, you can use that as leverage. Make all appeals based on that.
Ex: my wife had a horrible boss who's two goals were : Satisfy my personal emotional needs (she had a sick husband and no other family) and 'make my look cool and hi tech'. (Bare in mind this was a HOSPITAL department!!)
They could never reach agreement on #1 (she was simply too needy. She'd show up at meetings drunk, etc.). But, she could emphasize the 'we're cool factor' when she was trying to sway the boss.
As Charlies says, though, 'Now [she] works for me'. She thinks I'm an amazing boss |
| Fri 11 Jul | Alyosha` | I have two suggestions: First, try to avoid mentioning that the projects you worked on eventually flopped. Often folks will assume the best of what they didn't understand or didn't hear details about. It's not lying -- if they ask you, fess up to it, but don't volunteer that information. Second, blame the economy, blame the software, blame the customers for not buying it, blaming poor marketing, blame anything except the people you worked with. Folks don't want to work with a whiner. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Anonymous Cowboy | Answer honestly. Interestingly I often got questioned as to why I _didn't_ change jobs when I was in the hunt : I spent about 5 years at the same firm, and this is viewed negatively by many in the industry. The reason, of course, is that this industry is notorious for only allowing upward mobility by changing organizations (i.e. most firms don't promote their own, but always presume every joe off the street must be better than the people they have, which is why at most firms you have to leave every year or so or you're stagnating). |
| Fri 11 Jul | chrisg | You'll have to trust the interviewer, who doesn't know you from Adam, to intrepret your issues with your manager as reasonable and not the complaints of someone who can't work with people. Don't create this opportunity for misinterpretation. Instead, focus on the positives of the moving to the interviewer's organization. You think the business space they are in will provide an interesting career. You like the technology they are using. You believe they will provide better opportunities for advancement (a sensible tradeoff for a one-time pay cut). Anything that makes you sound like a winner trying to attach yourself to a good organization, not a whiner who's burned his bridges. If you are pressed for what is 'wrong' with your current company, describe it in terms of the lack of the above. You are not motivated by the work available, there are not using appropriate technology for their problems, there's no room to grow, etc. Don't answer tricky questions directly (as constructive comment pointed out), use them as opportunities to deliver the message you want them to hear. |
| Fri 11 Jul | John | My manager loves to conduct meetings every 30 mins... and wants everyone to stay back late for reason. Loves to conduct meetings between 6.00PM and 9.00PM... all we do every day is to write some kind of documents as mandated by him. He has terrible mood swings and calls me into his room and sometimes harps on some praise while most other times starts off tangentially on some managerial crap like: 'you know there are 2 kinds of leaders... what are they?'... or simply calls me in and shouts: 'if you don't listen to me i will have you fired... i will screw your performance appraisal...'. What I found about him was that he loves documents, presentations, meetings, any words that would stroke his ego, lots of e-mails, etc... No work towards getting the product out. Being a technically inclined guy, i felt all these were crap. P.S.: He joined just 3 months back. |
| Fri 11 Jul | John | Well, i forgot to mention that during my interview, I never said anything about any management stuff. I concentrated on my skills and on knowing more about how i fitted into the place. For certain tricky questions, i just smiled and moved on to asking about a career plan. |
| Fri 11 Jul | runtime | NEVER say bad things about previous employers. People who gossip to you behind other people's back will likely also gossip to other people behind YOUR back. Interviewers don't want people who (seem to) have a bad attitude. I've had my share of people problems at work, but I don't want to drag them along with me. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Entrepreneur | John, Your boss sounds like he's an emotional mess. What is HIS boss asking of HIM? Hmmm... could Mr. Boss be AFRAID of working on something that actually produces tangible results, beause then his competency would be revealed? Essentially, all this busy work is PROCRASTINATION? I.e., if he just gives you busy work, then no one ever sees the resulting work-product he's giving you. If he focused on something real (getting project done on time) he is risking failing at something that will be noticed. Often times, people are insecure and the hide that insecurity in very counterproductive ways: yelling instead of listening, reacting instead of acting, procrastinating, etc. Have you tried asking him what YOU can do for HIM? Perhaps get a list of the top 5 things you can do to make HIM look good to HIS boss. IF you can find ONE thing YOU agree on (e.g., 'finish projects on time') then perhaps you can say 'If you let me make this a top priority, I think I can deliver that for you'. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Hardware Guy | You've got a far more serious problem to deal with than explaining to prospective employers why you've changed jobs so often. First, you have to explain it to yourself. Honestly. After a string of bad job experiences, you have to ask yourself, 'Why have I repeately chosen to work at lousy places?' Until you can answer that question, how can you choose a new employer with any confidence of a good outcome? Maybe you think that I'm playing Blame The Victim here, but you have a problem that a lot of us, myself included, have experienced at one time or another. The only way out is to figure out what you're doing wrong, company-picking-wise, and correct it. It's either that or assume that every place is bad. The good news is, there are some great places to work. But it takes some effort to find them. |
| Fri 11 Jul | 19th floor | I found out that changing my job every 2-3 years is about right. It gives me an edge over my new team since I usually have much more experience from all my previous jobs and also prevents me from burning out. |
| Sat 12 Jul | John | I plan to get back to the people whom i interviewed with. The HR had said that she would get back to me in a day's time but no mails so far. I even plan to ask them what best they can offer. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Bobb | To jump or not to jump... Do NOT jump (off the bridge), please. Read this http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ Who knows, you might be one day a bad manager too, and other people will change jobs because of you. That's not a reason to jump. See, if the managment of the first job would jump, you wouldn't think of jumping, so because they didn't jump, it doesn't mean that you have to jump. Good luck John. |
| what does "hard time" mean? | Fri 11 Jul | Shaun |
| A recruiter approached a company with my resume, I was basically turned down for lack of experience, even though my skillset is the same area. In the company site it says - High-level of skill a must: Masters Computer Science, 5 years hard time, or equivalent experience what does hard time mean? does he mean 5 years doing really complex projects and stuff? |
| Fri 11 Jul | Heh Typical | It means you have had to code in a prison cell for at least 5 years ;-) On a serious note - recruiters have their pick of the litter at the moment. Here's an example - I sent out my resume for a contract job out in Cleveland recently for some .NET position. The recruiter seemed interested - she wanted to know my rate - $60/hr. She thought that was pretty high for my experience level (5 years) and that she had a guy working for him for $40/hr who had 10 years experience. I replied to her saying that she'd gotten one hell of a deal on that guy and she asked if I'd take $50/hr (sure). So once we got over that, then she wanted technical references (kind of tough, been at the same place for 2+ years, no contacts left at previous employer (high turnover rate)...assuming we could have gotten over that issue, she wanted to meet me (meaning drive to Cleveland - 3.5 hours away)... Could I have done it? Sure - if I thought she was seriously interested in putting me in this position. If times weren't so tough, a couple of phone interviews might have done the trick. Granted, I'm not whining about having to drive out there, but I'm really not interested in wasting my time jumping through hoops if there's not a good shot at me getting the job. And unfortunately it's pretty tough these days to have a good shot when you don't have an 'in' at the company. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Andrew Reid | Might be a typo - they could have meant '5 years hard real time' (meaning experience writing code that makes guarantees about it's resposiveness - a device driver that _must_ poll a device every 100ms for example). |
| Fri 11 Jul | Shaun | I'm pretty sure it's not real-time systems, they don't work on that kind of stuff |
| Fri 11 Jul | one programmer's opinion | 'In the company site it says ...' Which company site are you referring to? A recruiter's/headhunter's website or the company (client) website. It seems to me like the job description you posted came from the former. Is this a contract position where you are an employee of the recruiter or a full-time salary postion for the company in question? 'does he mean 5 years doing really complex projects and stuff?' Nobody can really answer your question except the recruiter or the company looking for help. I don't have a clue what type of company the recruiter sent your resume to. It could be (because of the Masters degree requirement) that the company is a large corporation (i.e. Insurance, Manufacturing, etc.) looking to hire a team lead type of person. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Shaun | It's on the companies site, not the recruiters, And it's a small company doing graphics work. |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | 'High-level of skill a must: Masters Computer Science, 5 years hard time, or equivalent experience' Sounds like an either-or situation. Either 1. Masters in CS or 2. 5 Years 'real world' experience, and not just some cushy office job or 3. Something equivelant to the above. I think 'hard time' is unfortunate wording because of the prison connotation. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Ged Byrne | I could be unfortunate wording, or depressingly effective metaphor. (Stares at blinds on window that look like bars) |
| Fri 11 Jul | anon | Hard time means 5 years of time spent employed, not 5 years with holes of unemployment. Or as a (truthful) cynic might say, 1 year of experience five times. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Joe AA. | 1 year of experience five times... wouldn't that be easy time? |
| Fri 11 Jul | | Hard time certainly does suggest that you shouldn't bend over to pick up the paperclips in your cubicle in whatever comapny that is. If the interviewer has lots of home made tats, run! |
| Fri 11 Jul | Tom Vu | 5 years hard time is 5 years of really developing something as opposed to 5 years of sitting in a cube from 9-5 fixing a line of code here or there. |
| Sat 12 Jul | posted 3:00 PM Saturday | where do I get the 9-5 job fixing a line of code here or there? sounds like it might beat working on weekends. |
| Sat 12 Jul | www.marktaw.com | posted 3:00 PM Saturday, these jobs are worse than you'd think. Being idle is worse than working hard, trust me, I've done both and I'd rather work hard than be idle, at least on the company's dime. In my spare time, a little idle never hurt anyone. BTW, you need to list a time zone. 5:08pm EST, as I'm heading out the door. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Roose | I second the request for the 9-5 job fixing a few lines of code here or there. Boss has mandated last week that everyone be here every day until final, about a month away. Before that we were working at least 6 days/week anyway. Help, apartment is a mess, bills unpaid, no social life. |
| Sun 13 Jul | | working at 3:00 PM on a saturday is bad no matter _what_ time zone you're talking about. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Alyosha` | Roose: you should tell your manager to go f*ck himself with a cream cheese dildo, and then quit on his ass. Someone's gotta teach him: * Employee turnover is costly. * Quality of work drops off sharply after about 40 hours a week. * When you reach 80 hours a week, you're actually accomplishing LESS than if you worked 40 hours. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Pablo | He is asking for real time / embedded experience. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Andy | Alyosha, thanks for kind words, or the mean words about the boss. haha.. I totally agree, 80 hour work weeks are very counterproductive. I know I haven't increased my productivity since I've been working longer hours. I don't get it though. Sometimes I think all my co-workers are brainwashed. They CONSTANTLY complain about the hours, but some of them have been at the company for 5-10 years. If I were complaining all the time, I would just quit. This is my first full project cycle, and I plan to quit as soon as I can find another job. However, unfortunately the unemployment rate is the highest it's been in a decade, and I am pretty entry level. I think the entry level jobs have the most contention, from new grads to experienced people looking for *anything*. We have a guy that's like 31 with years of experience and a degree as an INTERN. What a job market. It would be nice to teach them a lesson, since we only have 12 engineers, and if one of us quit during a critical period, it would be a disaster. But I wouldn't want to do that to my co-workers, since they would probably bear the brunt of it rather than the manager. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Rick Watson | If you've ever been to graduate school, you know it amounts to hard time :-) |
| Sun 13 Jul | Sammy | It is surprisingly easy to brainwash employees. I saw people in non-work situations preferring the 'hard work' solution to their problems rather than the obviously effective one. As an example, they would carry one heavy thing N times rather than use the machine that was designed to effortlessly carry N things. This was at a company that rewarded the appearance of work rather than the work itself, and it bled over into their personal lives. |
| Interviewing | Fri 11 Jul | Canuck |
| All right folks, hopefully some of you seasoned business owners and non-PHB managers can help me out. I am a one man show with too much on my plate at the moment, so, its time to grow the business. Pretty exciting, but I have never had to interview anyone before. I read Joels thoughts on the matter, and they seem pretty solid. Now, perhaps I could get some musings from the rest of you. In short, some comments on the following might be good: [1] How do you personally, stucture your interview. Joel proposes a nice agenda, but alternatives are always nice. [2] Favorite interview questions both tech and otherwise. [3] Ever have an interview go horribly wrong with a candidate you really liked? What did you do to win him over? As always, any and all comments welcome ... |
| Fri 11 Jul | one programmer's opinion | canuck, Before I can say something like, 'Look for someone who is willing to work for low pay in exchange for being mentored', you will need to provide us with more information. What will the new hire be required to do (on a day-to-day basis, occassionally, etc.) for you? Most of the questions you ask in a phone or face-to-face interview should be based on whatever work criteria you come up with. As for the technical part of the interview, the most important thing to do is to ask probing technical questions. If you feel that asking questions is simply not 'good enough' then I suggest you give potiential candidates some choices. For example, you could: * Have them take a written test * Have them take an online test * Have them create something simple for you on one of your PCs * Ask them to show you software they wrote on their own time If you are really paranoid about hiring someone who quickly turns out to be a lemon than you should think about hiring someone on a contracting basis (you pay them when you have work for them). The best advice I can give you is to be brutally honest with the people you decide to interview and act like you normally do when you are in work mode. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Stephen Jones | I do loads of interviewing in a different field and I always ask about things lacking in the CV - though dealing with intorverts this might not be a great idea! Interviews have never been shown as more reliable selection methods than tossing a coin, so treat them as a social occasion intended to get the guy out of his shell. |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | > Interviews have never been shown as more reliable selection methods than tossing a coin Interesting, do you have data to back this up, I'd love to see it. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Stephen Jones | They did research on this some years back. Presumably the groups would have been culled beforehand. With programming you might need the interview process to weed out BS more than in other jobs. No direct links to give you I'm afraid. The data just stuck. Incidentally all the managers involved in the interviewing process considered it the best way of selecting candidates! |
| Fri 11 Jul | snotnose | My interview structure is 1) Get them to relax. Offer coffee, soda, a bathroom break, etc. This is 2-3 minutes. 2) Start out with softball questions. One or two easy questions lets them regain their confidence. 3) Now start asking the hard stuff. This is the bulk of the interview. My questions get progressivly harder, the only people that make it to the end of my list in the allotted time are those who can't answer any questions. 4) Let them ask you questions. This is 30 seconds to 10 minutes, I just let them ask questions until they're done, or I have to be somewhere else. All of my programming questions require them to write code. I'm not looking for piddly syntax errors, I'm after how they approach the problem, and the algorithms they use. I've also interviewed a lot of people for other departments that use languages I don't know. I find I can spend 10 minutes before an interview to get the rudiments of the language enough to know if that Python script is in fact lisp. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Nick | There's an interesting article on artima.com about a panel discussion on how to interview a programmer. Techniques differed among the panel members, so there's no one 'best' way, but the responses are interesting. See http://www.artima.com/wbc/interprog.html |
| Fri 11 Jul | Canuck | Thanks for the link, Nick. Very informative ... |
| Fri 11 Jul | eclectic_echidna | Canuck, I did something interesting in my latest round of interviews. In the job posting I asked them not to send their resume, and instead asked for a short writing sample answering questions I posted in the job announcement. Over 75% sent their resume, with no other comments. In effect, they spammed their resume to me. They didn't even try to follow instructions. Attention to detail is important. Also, if your salary range is low, tell them up front what it is, you then won't waste your time interview those who cannot afford the low salary. Finally, I sent them a written test to show their coding skills on some 2-4 day tasks. Many promised it by a certain time, but instead sent nothing. Many attempted the problems, but really couldn't finish. There was great variance in the solutions presented by people who finished the test. In the interview, the test provided over an hour of discussion on what they were thinking. The only think that bothered me is that only one of the candidates asked me any questions about the deliberately vague test questions, the rest took it upon them to slaughter the answer. Some sent 5-10 days worth of code that did not represent the question at all. Way in left field. Is that how they intend to work for me? In the end, the person I ended up hiring was in my salary range, didn’t spam their resume, made an effort to understand our company, found a bug in my code, asked reasonable and relevant questions about the test, and even made suggestions about process in my company. What else can I ask for? Also, are you in the Phoenix area? Are you hiring? :) -- ee |
| Fri 11 Jul | Bill Tomlinson | Don't forget the importance of personality compatibility. Particularly in a small office with someone who you'll be working closely with all day. As the owner/sole decision maker, you have the wonderful luxury of hiring exactly who you want and not having to justify the decision to anyone (I assume). So put extra effort into finding someone that you'd like to work with. That may very not be the most technically qualified person. Not that I'm saying you should hire an idiot that you get along with, but having a jelled team is much more important than having a bunch of super-stars who are a team in name only ('chickens with lips are funny', etc). But how do you determine compatability? Unfortunately the only way I know is time. So I'd recommend conducting much longer interviews than normal and, if possible, include some sort of relaxed social component. For example, set up the interview for late morning, do all the standard interview stuff, then, if you like the candiate so far, invite them out to lunch. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Canuck | ee, Thanks for the advice! Those are some creative suggestions. The kind of fresh perspective I was looking for. --- Also, are you in the Phoenix area? Are you hiring? :) -- I'm in Canada, near Toronto ... hence the moniker. If the commute is not too much for you, send a CV my way. ; ) |
| Fri 11 Jul | Christopher Wells | Where if anywhere will you advertise for candidates, canuck? The phrase 'One of the biggest mistakes companies make is to recruit from a shopping list' from http://www.artima.com/wbc/interprog.html was remarkable, given that every advertisement I see has just such a shopping list. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Seth Gordon | http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbehavioralint.html |
| Fri 11 Jul | Canuck | I have an ad in the Saturday edition paper of the largest area paper. Its due out tomrrow, so I am rather interested to see what the response will be. It does in fact have a 'shopping list' in the ad, but its quite short, so as to attract a diverse field of candidates. The prospective candidate will be immersed in thick client, web, .NET, wireless handheld, higher order mathematics and database work. So, flexibility and aptitude rank highly as desireable skills. Programming experience in a particular language will not be a limiting factor. Despite this, I can't have my head in the clouds. I do have deliverables that my clients are expecting, and it has to be quality. The candidate in question must have some foundation in the things that are expected to be done. Most notably, Windows development and SQL concepts. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Stephen Jones | Dear eclectic, Your approach of expecting people to go to the effort of writing out indiividual answers to your questions is both inconsiderate and short-sighted. Why should a candidate go to all that individual trouble for you if all you have done is place an ad? You will automatically miss the applications of those who are rightfully warned off by this example of inconsideration for employees. For your initial ad ask for the generic resume; many will have various tweaked versions or will tweak it anyway. Then for the subset you are interested in mail them back and ask them any additional information you need. If you are taking time to answer them individually, they will do the same for you. |
| Sat 12 Jul | anon | I think echidna's ad has the advantage of looking 'creative' and more importantly makes one feel as if it's less random and arbitrary than most selection processes. For someone who spends time online, it's fairly natural to write a small answer. But a 2 to 4 day test project? What does that mean, 16 to 32 hours of work, or something that you might think about a little bit for a couple of days before implementing? If the former, it's pretty onerous. Otherwise, sounds like fun, programmers like coding small things that aren't boring as long as you're not taking advantage of their work. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Rick Watson | I don't think interviews are any more necessary in this field than in others. I agree that personality compatibility is a huge factor. Has anyone read Ernest Shackleton's book? Before going on a voyage across the Anarctic, his interviews were routinely based on gut feel and whether or not he thought he could work with the person. The process he went through is quite amazing. You want to tell me having the best engineer isn't important to someone like that, compared to writing something like a database application? The two don't even compare. I agree with the earlier comments about using the time to get someone out of their shell. Personally I tend to ask a lot of 'Tell me about a time when...' comments. This gets their ACTUAL response in ACTUAL situations in a past. They don't have any room to BS you about 'oh in an ideal world I would do X, but ...' - Rick |
| Mouse Alternatives? | Thu 10 Jul | Bruce Perry |
| Does anyone out there have experience with mouse subsititutes like the Fingerworks iGesture pad? If so, did you like it and how long did it take you to adjust to it? The common commands as finger gestures looks very intriguing Ive got some wrist and forearm pain that Im hoping a change of devices might help. Ive already switched to a Gyration cordless mouse that can be used off-desk. I like it better than my previous mouse now that Ive reduced the sensitivity a bit. I can switch hands with it more readily and for when Im just reading or browsing, the ability to use the mouse off the desk is useful (though I dont use it that way as much as I thought I might). |
| Thu 10 Jul | Mitch & Murray (from downtown) | I cannot say enough good things about a trackball. I am partial to the Logitech models. |
| Thu 10 Jul | anonymous | Even better, get a thumb-operated and finger-operated trackball mouse. They stress different muscles, so rotating will help a lot. As in the previous post, I strongly recommend logitech. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com) | I'm seriously considering an iGesture pad. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Frederik Slijkerman | Wacom tablets are great. The A5 Graphire is a terrific mouse replacement. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Frederik Slijkerman | I mean A6... |
| Thu 10 Jul | Roose | I actually had the iGesture pad and sold it. If you have pain, it might be a good solution. It definitely feels easier on the hands. But I was just looking for something that was more ergonomic and faster. It is definitely slower than a mouse. Forget about typing with it, the fact that you have no tactile feedback is key. You have to look and pay attention to make sure you are hitting the right keys. Also the scrolling gesture did not work right. It was very jerky, so as to be unusable. Going back to using scrollbars is not fun. I hate the mouse too but it is definitely faster than most alternatives. I haven't found a good one so I just stick to the mouse. But again, if you have pain, it's a different story. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | I have an MS trackball (they were out of the logitech when I was shopping) the kind where you move the mouse with your thumb and click with your fingers. I use it all the time and it's really cut down on some pain I was having in my index and middle fingers - as a bass player, i was concerned that this would lead to serious injury. Well, the pain is only there when I'm on the computer for hours on end doing really mouse-intensive stuff, graphics for example. It's really down by like 99%. I don't know about the Logitech, but the MS one is always detected by Windows, so I never have to install drivers, which is nice. I've never tried one of those gesture things, but they look interesting... Do you always have to keep your hand hovering over it though? |
| Thu 10 Jul | Entrepreneur | Switched to a trackball years ago. Love it. I recommend an OPTICAL trackball b/c it's easy to get dirt from your finger on the ball. (Not a problem with an optical). I use the Logitech marble mouse. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Roose | Does anyone think the trackball is faster than the mouse? I always thought it was slower, but maybe you have to get used to it. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Even after about a year or more with the trackball, I still think a mouse is probably easier to use. The good thing about the track ball is you can SPIN it across the screen at a moment's notice. I'd say it's around 80% as good as a mouse, but with a 200% improvement in my sore fingers. Optical Trackballs are great. Do they come any other way now? |
| Thu 10 Jul | Philo | For those who've had pain issues with mice - what were you using? I'm susceptible to CPS (got it from laptop typing), and I mouse a LOT, but I've never gotten pain from mousing. *But* I use a logitech mouseman (the ergo-shaped one) and a gelpad (soft rubber mousepad with a gel pad for my wrist) For mousing I use both my fingers and wrist to use the mouse. Not sure if that's 'the' answer, but it hasn't caused me any problems... Philo |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | I don't think it matters. I tend to use my fingers to do everything - push it around, click, everything. By the end of the day, they would hurt. With the trackball, the heel of my hand rests on the mouse and my fingers just sort of rest on it. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Chris Tavares | Logitech Marble Trackball man here. I got some serious shoulder pain from using a mouse. I blamed my workplace, but to be honest, I'm pretty sure it was caused by Diablo II. (And no, I did not claim workman's comp for the injury) Switching to the trackball made the pain go away. The model I use is the one with the ball in the middle; you use your fingers to move the ball and your thumb to click the buttons. I'd prefer a more ergonomic model, but nobody makes left-handed trackballs. Heck, I'd be happy to find a hand-neutral one with a scroll wheel or more than two buttons. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Phoenix | Whew, don't you guys ever play games? |
| Fri 11 Jul | Just me (Sir to you) | I tries a trackball (Logitech) for a (admitedly short) while. Never liked it. I love the cheap MS mouse (the bend soapbar one with just the two buttons and the wheel). |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | I think the only reason I gave the trackball as much of a go as I did was because I was really worried about my fingers. After a while, you just get used to it, though your friends never do. One cool advantage is that you can click & drag, and when you click and un-click, you don't accidentally move the mouse, so you can get pixel-perfect precision. It's awkward to start, but I don't use a regular mouse. My girlfriend's computer is a laptop, and the only time I ever use a mouse now is when I'm at a friend's house. Most of the time, I'm not really aware of what I'm using, they all become ingrained after a while. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Tom | http://www.mousetool.com/ It clicks the mouse for you. Takes some getting used to, but I found it very useful and after using it for about 18 months my fingers feel a lot better. That, and switching to dvorak keyboard layout, solved a lot of my pain-from-typing problems. |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Tom - how long did it take you to get used to Dvorak. My finger memory is so strong, I don't know that I'd be able to make the transition easily. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Chris Tavares | 'Don't you guys ever play games?' Yep, I still do. It took a little while, but I'm as good with the trackball in Diablo as I was with the mouse, only without the shooting pain in the shoulder. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Bruce Perry | Thanks for all the responses. It's clear that the trackball is another good option. I'm still leaning toward the iGesture pad (higher cool factor), but I'm happy to know there are other options in case the pad doesn't work out. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Tom | I wouldn't like to say how long it took me to get used to dvorak, because I kept using qwerty at work for about 5 months. Eventually I started mistyping a lot on both, so I switched wholly to dvorak. A friend changed too and it took him about a week of typing only on dvorak layout to get to a usable speed. It probably won't take as long as you think, but it is very disconcerting at first. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com) | My question with typing Dvorak is laptops. Who makes a laptop w/ a Dvorak keyboard? Is it just a matter of popping off the letter caps and rearranging them (in combination with a different software driver, of course)? For that matter, do people who type Dvorak seek out Dvorak keyboards, or just rearrange the letters and get new driver for their Qwerty keyboards? |
| Sat 12 Jul | Tom | Judging from various websites I've visited, it seems most people just leave the qwerty keycaps as they are. This doesn't take long to get used to. I used marker pen on my home keyboard, and covered each key with a bit of sellotape to prevent smudging. With laptop keyboards you should just be able to rearrange the keys, as they're probably all the same shape. |
| Sat 12 Jul | Andy | Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I think it's accepted now that dvorak superiority is questionable. http://reason.com/9606/Fe.QWERTY.shtml I have read several articles on the subject, all explaining why dvorak superiority is a myth, but that is the best one I could find through google in 5 seconds. Try 'dvorak myth'. Is the goal to relieve pain or to increase typing speed? I think that most of the articles focus on typing speed. I don't know anything about the pain aspect, though I would think that the act of typing is the thing that causes the pain, and the keyboard layout is a relatively small factor. Probably the split keyboards would help more with the pain aspect than switching layouts. Maybe the initial loss of pain with dvorak is explained by the loss of speed when you're switching. BTW I have never tried typing on dvorak, but its argument seem to make sense, on first thought. However, even though my hands are just average sized for a male, the idea of separating common letter pairs (as qwerty does) seems like a good thing. The dvorak strategy of putting the common letters on the home row makes seems like it would cramp my hands. If I could change the keyboard layout, I would make it so the modifiers (shift, alt, ctrl) can be done with the thumb. I think that would eliminate some strain. I see people all the time contorting their hands in odd ways because for some reason they don't like to use their pinkies when typing (though I do). |
| Sat 12 Jul | www.marktaw.com | I use al lof the fingeres on my left hand, and most of the fingers on my right hand - not the pinky, I think it's because I play bass and bass requires all the fingers on te left hand and only a few on the right hand. I was thinking of switching to that layout that lets you type with just your left hand, which would help with switchng between the mouse & keyboard, and I could type while eating, or when my cat jumps on my lap, which is convenient. I imagine switching between keyboard layouts is kind of like alternate tunings on a guitar, or going from bass to cello, or guitar to mandoin. All the tools you need are there, it's just a matter of remapping things, so how long it takes probably depends mostly on your own internal ability to deal with frustration, which kinda brings us back to Philo's question about learning new languages. Thanks for all the info on Dvorak. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Stephen Jones | ----'Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I think it's accepted now that dvorak superiority is questionable.'---- No; the urban myth is actually the myth that Dvorak is not superior. If you check your Goolge references more carefully you will see that they nearly all refer back to articles by Margolis. He is one of these 'Chicago boys' who believe that it doesn't take anybody to change a lightbulb because if the lightbulb needed changing the mareket would do it of its own accord. The Qwerty keyboard stands as a thorn in the side of these people who believe the free market always produces the best of all worlds, and so Loebowicz and Margolis do their best to trash it. Their argurments have been convincinlgy answered here http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html but the rabid right doesn't believe facts or arguments should spoil a good dogma. Conspiracy theorists among you can have a field day here because Margolis is/was a paid consultant for MS in its case against the DOJ. Suggestions that the continued peddling of falsehoods provides more lucrative consultancy fees than admitting that sometimes market dominance is not the result of optimal design are probably very close to the mark. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Andy | Point taken, but after skimming both articles again there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence either way. The guy debunks the dvorak debunking, but I haven't really seen any evidence that dvorak is superior beyond logical arguments, not empirical ones. IMHO I would guess that dvorak is significantly superior for about x percent of people, where x is close to the percentage of people who actually use dvorak, and thus probably less than 1. For the rest of the population, typing isn't that big a deal, and they have no reason to switch. If dvorak was 5 times as good, I think you'd see a lot more people using it (since we've had PCs for a good 20+ years now, making it free to remap). But it's probably more like 1.1 times as good for a certain segment of the population. As far as pain goes, everyone I know with RSI was helped a lot more by using a microsoft natural-style keyboard. Well, not that they tried dvorak, but that seemed to be an easier solution. I don't know who Margolis et al are, but it their theories about economics seem like poor justification for slandering the dvorak layout. It seems a little odd that they would care that much. Nothing in these 'soft sciences' are really laws; there are always exceptions. Their laws are more like generalizations. I would just say that things that involve muscle memory are an exception. It's pretty obvious that muscle memory is very strong and lives in an deep intuitive part of the brain, e.g. if you learned piano as a kid, you probably still have some melodies lingering around in your fingers, even after a decade or more of not playing. Ask anyone who has tried to change their tennis swing or their golf swing after a number of years playing. Also there have been alternative piano keyboard layouts that never made it. The current keyboard is pretty bad because transposition is a pain in the ass, e.g. C major falls much differently on the hand than E major or B major. This is a pain if you want to transpose something for someone's voice, since there is no way to quickly retune a piano. There have been a number of alternative keyboards over the years that never made it. Also, the dvorak logic seems faulty as I already mentioned before. Do an experiment here: most people have their keyboard and mouse centered around the monitor, maybe with the mouse side sticking out a little more. Either way, your center is at about the right alt key or even further to the right -- so you're hands are not centered about the g and the h. Also note that if you just relax your fingers, they fall in a curve. These two facts combined IMHO make it very clear that typing with 8 fingers on the home row is extremely uncomfortable. I have never seen anybody actually type like that. I just tried it, and my wrist hurt after about 2 minutes. Normally, I (and I think most people) type with their arms roughly at a 80 degree angle to each other, and their wrists straight, and their fingers relaxed and curved. Doing this makes the home row seem pretty arbitrary. I can hit any key on the keyboard just as easily as I hit one on the home row. Anyway, that's just my opinion, to each his own. I don't doubt that dvorak has its advantages; whether they outweigh its disadvantages is personal. marktaw: I saw some software that lets you type with one hand. I think it used the spacebar as a 'reflection' modifier: space+A = L, space+S = K, etc. In this way you can type with one hand, and supposedly the mirroring idea makes learning it faster, because you still type the letter with the same finger (theoretically). It seems like a good idea, but obviously it would be slower, and if you have to type ctrl-J you would have to type ctrl-space-D which seems painful. One thing I plan on doing someday is just switching my mouse to the left hand. I'm left-handed anyway, and it would solve the problem of your hands not being centered around G and H. Also then you can use the numeric keypad for macros and navigation in the IDE more comfortably. This is similar to the original Xerox PARC design where they had a chording keyboard on the left hand, and the mouse on the right hand. What ever happened to that thing. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Stephen Jones | The reason Margolis and ilk want to slam Dvorak is that it is key example of the 'network effect'; that is QWERTY's continued dominance is the result of its dominance and not because it is superior. Other examples sometimes given are Apple v Wintel or Betamax v VHS but those examples have been discredited. Dvorak/Qwerty however is there and rather than admit the network effect Margolis prefers to twist the facts. He has never replied to Brooks either to refute or retract. You are evidently not a touch typist. If you were you would know that your fingers are always resting on the home keys, and return to them after every keystroke; old-fashioned typing tutors would go round with a cane and rap you in the knuckles if your fingers didn't do this. It is much faster to type using the home keys. The problem now is the time taken to retrain. You have to start from scratch and this means doing no work at all for the time taken to learn, which at a couple of hours a day is probably a month. If schools taught it initially, then it would be a different matter; the conservative nature of typing teachers is amazing though. You are quite right about Dvorak/Qwerty having no effect on RSI. The Microsoft Natural is the best for this, and I'm realizing this all the time as I type this on the laptop keyboard. The number of my postings to JOS plunges when I'm on holiday because of how uncomfortable laptop keyboards are. |
| Sun 13 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Long post, not very informative, feel free to skim. I've stuck *asterisks* around interesting ideas. I'm not a typist and have a lot of bad typing habits, including almost never using the pinky on my right hand and instead using the middle and ring fingers to cover that area, but I do type pretty quickly - around 50-60wpm, including time for backspacing type-o's. A year or two ago when I was interested in dvorak, I did a little research and it seemed to make sense, but never took the leap. What I'm trying to say is, yes my keyboard is to the left of the monitor and the mouse to the right (I never noticed until you brought it up), but *I do type with my fingers on he home row*, and they pretty much remain there as I'm typing, even if my right hand shifts back and forth a little bit to make up for the fact that I don't use my pinky, so the presumption that you type with your fingers on the home row is accurate for a lot of people... certainly anyone who types with more than just a couple of fingers hunting and pecking. Again, as a musician, I know the importance of knowing where your hand is. On a guitar or bass, it's not enough to know which fret & string you're pressing, you also want to know where exactly you are in that inch or two of space or else when you move you might miss the next note by just enough to let the audience know you've screwed up. On a fretless instrument it's even more important to have a feel for the space your finger is in because there's basically no room for error. So you rely on finger memory and various subtle clues... Typing is the same way. *Those little knobs on the F and J key really do come in handy to let you know that your fingers are on the home row. Typing a special character like the ampersand & is a mild interruption because it's out of the scope of what you normally type.* Regarding the MS Natural keyboard, I experimented with it around the time I started experimenting with the trackball, and never could get used to it. Part of it is because I don't type right and use my right and left hand to type characters on the other side of the keyboard... My left hand types 'Y' while my right hand types 'B.' *Mostly, though my fingers felt WORSE when I was using it... Maybe because I as more self conscious of my typing, but I think it has to do with the fact that though the keys are slanted 'stadium seating' style, when you hit them, they still go straight down... So you attack them at an angle, and they don't follow that angle, they go down instead.* |
| Sun 13 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Oh yeah, *MouseTool* looks cool. I've been playing with it for the past few hours and it really works... I turn it off when I'm doing something important because I don't want to have to think about what I'm doing with the mouse, but I expect that I'll become as used to it as I am the regular mouse in no time. It's true, basically any time you rest your mouse somewhere it's to click on something, so why not have your mouse click automatically every time you rest your mouse? I have to figure out a way to map special functions near the left CTRL key now so that I can work with both hands quickly. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Andy | I understand the network effect, but I find it hard to believe that they would argue it doesn't exist at all. Also, I would argue that QWERTY has other things going for it besides the network effect. My understanding of the network effect is compatibility -- it is a pain for me to switch th dvorak, because if I go to work, everyone is using qwerty. Same thing if I try to use a Mac, everyone else is using a PC, and it is harder to share my files with them. There is also the initial cost up front, which is distinct. I'm sure they have a term for it, but I don't know what it is. For dvorak it is quite high (or at least perceived as quite high, which is what matters). For switching to mac, the cost is buying a Mac, the idea of dealing with higher upgrade costs, and learning Mac applications, etc. If you have a market leader, like qwerty was, and like the IBM PC was, then whether the 'superior newcomer' will win out is simply a function of how superior it is. It must be superior enough to overcome the initial cost, and the network effect. Denying that the network effect even exists seems to be a bit naive, and I doubt they are doing that. They probably think it is not important, and the free market will always converge to the best solution. But that is just a matter of degree. I would say it converges to the Best +- x%, where x is some factor that takes into account the fact that it is not worth it to switch to something 1.1x better when it has a high initial cost and the competitor has a near-monopoly (like qwerty does). Also as I noted, the dvorak retraining cost is perceived as extremely high because muscle memory involved, and I gave the examples of athletic skills and musical instruments. If the cost is so high, then it doesn't seem to have any bearing on one academic theory or another. Obviously if we are switching electrical socket standards, and it is not backwards compatible, the cost will probably be near $10 billion for the country. The new socket better be about a million times better, at least. No matter what academics believe, that is still true. : ) And the same can be said for qwerty. Anyway, I definitely am a touch typist. I type 95-100wpm, making me pretty much faster than anyone in the room at a given time. For some reason I don't need to keep my fingers on the home row to touch type. I mean, surely my fingers are closest to the home row on average, but I don't need to keep them there to know where I am. Keeping them squarely on the keys seems make your wrists become parallel, which is very bad for the hands. I tend to keep my wrists in the same configuration that people do on an MS natural-style keyboard, but I always use a regular keyboard. Anyway, the point is that dvorak proponents argue that it is easier to type a key on the home row, which I find untrue in my experience. Maybe if you're starting out though, I dunno. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Tom | If anyone was inspired to try mouse tool, there is an alternative version available from my website. I just got round to uploading it now. Full details are at: http://www.tomseddon.plus.com/mousetool/ I think it improves it greatly. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Philo | The problem with the network effect theory is that it's been debunked so many times. I am *still* blown away by how fast CD's became the standard - I watched it happen in my college bookstore. When I started in '85, the music racks were all vinyl. By my graduation in '89, they were all CD's. The contents literally flipped around 86-87. Look at DVD's now - VHS is dying fast. I think the network effect isn't about the cost of change. I think Joel hit it on the head - the network effect is about the COST OF CHANGING BACK. CD's and DVD's succeeded so well because you could have both a CD player and a turntable, or a DVD player and a VHS deck. (and a cassette deck and a videodisc player). Philo |
| Andy Grove: "US may lose tech superiority" Why? | Thu 10 Jul | anon |
| Andy Grove said yesterday on Charlie Roses show that he fears America will lose her technical superiority within two decades. He seemed to suggest that this may be so because, since were on top, were not hungry enough to put in the hard work, nor make the sacrifices that are necessary to attain technical excellence. It sounds plausible to me that America will lose technical dominance, but, for the sake of discussion, let me throw out another theory as to the cause of this trend downward. I firmly believe (and I may be wrong) that America is saddled with a largely untalented management class of elites who are systematically destroying the technical class by removing the incentive for Americans to obtain a technical education. Its no secret that during the bubble years, management abhorred having to pay the unwashed technical masses very nearly what they themselves were making. It is also no secret that the past three years have been a exercise in cutting technical salaries to the quick. Sure, supply and demand should have driven salaries down to an extent, but its my contention that what weve seen goes far beyond market forces. Its my contention that, at present in America, there is no practical reason to devote oneself to technology. What is the reward for four to twelve years of rigorous study in one of these fields? The reward is that some manager will leverage some synergy and slash your salary or eliminate your job entirely. Lets face it, it just doesnt take a lot of brain power to be a manager. It takes a thick skin and a willingness to play politics. Ive worked at many public companies, big and small, and Ive never, ever seen a management meritocracy. The management teams have been political, and in *all* cases, talented managers have been left behind in favour of untalented kiss-ups. (BTW, there was an interesting article about that in yesterdays WSJ.) Also note that management is not subject to normal free-market pressure because these good old boys set their own salaries! The editor of The Outrage said it nicely: The salary of CEOs [...] is not determined directly by the free market, or at least not by a free and efficient market. In other words, the services of management are not put out to auction. The salaries are determined by the three directors of the company who sit on the compensation committee, and are approved by the companys full board of directors. America is not fat, dumb and happy. America is being managed into the oblivion of mediocrity. |
| Thu 10 Jul | runtime | Never mind that Chinese and Indian programmers will work for 1/5 of the cost of US programmers. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | anon - your argument about fat and lazy management has nothing to do with the US losing technological superiority. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Michael Moser | .. and where (what planet) do you see able managers? bad management is an intergalactic malaise. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Andrew Burton | It's because in two decades our nation's programmers will be the products of today's educational system. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Tony Chang | I agree with anon. Technological superiority in the US requires that the best and the brightest in the US contribute to technological research and development. India and China provide technological development services for 1/10 to 1/2 the cost. So managers are exporting these positions overseas. That means that the research and development is being done here less and less. If the development is not being done here, then we won't have the edge since we won't have the people. This is all just self evident. Sure, you can make a business case to eat your seed corn. You do realize though, if you are a smart manager, that eating your seed corn will have consequences in the future -- that you will lose your ability to grow corn. Managers don't realize this. It's because they are fat and lazy and stupid. All they see is the pile of seed corn -- that's the cost savings from exporting research and development jobs overseas. No arguments that you save money! You certainly do! The fat and lazy managers just have to realize they should enjoy the spoils while you can -- because their overseas competitors are using their own money to build an technological army that in a few years will come and eat the offspring of the fat and lazy manager. The fit will survive and the weak will have their land raided, their daughters captured as concubines, and their sons decapitated and thrown to the dogs. The fit will not be America for America has sold the edge which is her advantage, her powerhouse, her strength, her legacy, for a few trinkets and a full belly. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Mike McNertney | Even if you're right about managers, the fact that in China and India software developers are paid much less than in the US doesn't mean the US will lose technical superiority. The US's technical superiority (if you believe it exists, some Europeans may debate this) is not based on business software developers. It is based on our massive research and manufacturing infrastructure. Neither of which is going away anytime soon. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Tony Chang | Mike, What you missed there is that that research and development requires that the best and the brightest chose engineering/science as a career. Check out the student body of the CS, CE and EE departments at the top 20 ranked engineering schools and tell me what you find. Lots of American students studying? |
| Thu 10 Jul | anonymous | I think the thing that will kill the tech industry in the US is a group of people known as lawyers. There is no longer much incentive to create new things when you can patent existing things and sue companies who can't afford to defend themselves. It will get to the point where the only companies willing to create new products will be large companies with large patent portfolios and pocketbooks. Unfortunately, most real innovation comes from small companies. As far as worrying about the reward for rigorous study, I wish anyone who had such concerns would leave the industry. We would be better off without them. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Fascinating how many facets there are to making predictions, and how any crackpot theory can lead to the same conclusion. We haven't defined what we mean by 'technical superiority' here - is it in manufacturing, i.e. the robots that make cars and airplanes, or is it in software, i.e. will the next MicroSoft come out of China? Certainly a lot of the manufacturing is already overseas - how many corporations own factories in China? As is a lot of programming now going to India. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Foolish Jordan | What exactly will 'technical superiority' do for us anyway? I'd rather be rich and lazy than technically superior any day of the week. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Tony Chang | Anybody do any fishing? You put the worm on the hook and dangle it in front of the fish. The fish sees it and thinks 'Wow a free lunch just dropped right in front of me! This will be so much easier for me than doing the hard work of looking for food!' Fat and happy. For a time. You guys that don't look asian are going to have a hard time of it since you'll be the first against the wall when my cousins show up here and take over. We're baiting the hook and you're falling for it -- hook line and sinker. We like it that way because we like to eat fish for dinner and we are very hungry. If you want your genome to survive, your best bet will be to raise beautiful, docile daughters who are good cooks and homemakers. They will be the choice picks for the officers. The ugly ones will be sold. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Michael Moser | who are asians? i thought asian cultures are largely incompatible (china and india are Verrry different, it's not like europe where they have a common cultural identity) wasn't china mostly too much preocupied with itself? Not likely to 'take over the world'. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Leonardo Herrera | Now, that's some very disturbing post, Tony. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Dennis Forbes | I sense some xenophobia in here. The world isn't a zero-sum game: If India, or China, or any other country, modernizes then good for them! India has approaching (surpassing?) a BILLION people, so the premise that there are some very intelligent developers among them hardly surprizes me (and I find it stunningly racist when pointy heads talk in a giddy voice about how intellectual work [though strangely they never think about thier own...] can be done in these countries, as if they discovered that no, these people aren't a breed of subhumans). Here are the facts that I see (though I could be wrong): -Most organizations won't even let developers telecommute, much less live half a world away. The overwhelming number of developers work on 'business secret' type inhouse applications that are critical for the business. VERY few organizations have a strict development process where they create a detailed spec from which a precise product can be created : Even in the strictest organization with layers of analysts and tech writers, there is a still a rapid cyclical 'aglie' process. Outsourcing generally depends upon something which truly has never existed in software development. -99% of the talk about outsourcing overseas is just talk to earn wage concessions. Yes you can come running in here with your hands in the air crying about the doom coming for all of us, but all of the numbers that are supposed to represent some massive outflow are, in the grand scheme, a tiny trickle. -India and China, as a sample, represent massive new markets. Think about how you can get THEIR money. -Market effects occur overseas as well. When everyone is vying for a limited CS group, wages grow. Already I've heard that, with all costs, an Indian software engineer is 60% of the cost of a US engineer. Big deal. You can find that value in Canada. All this whole hoopla should teach you is that you should build unicode in your apps to take advantage of a growing market. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Unibomber | The entire issue of which country is being regarded as the 'Tech Superiority' is irrelivent when viewed from an economical and global point of view. 'Technology' is just one small aspect (in time and space) along the path to the total global shift towards a Wealth Based model of society and human existance. The more important issue is the distribution of Wealth derived from the technology industry. http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm The dominant share-holders, Board of Directors, CEOs, and V.P (the Non-Tech Business People with the Power and Money) don't really care that much about 'U.S. tech superiority'... What they really mean is 'US may lose Wealth Superiority'. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Dougwithau | I recall something I saw once on 60 Minutes, I think. It was about how India is hopelessly bureaucratic. You have to get business permits for every little thing. If a minister or local teapot dictator does not like you or needs more money, you get nothing. All the paperwork must be sent away for weeks to get stamps, etc. Has this changed? Are these feared Indian IT organizations home grown or built by outsiders taking advantage of the low labor cost. I cannot imagine that China is much friendlier to the small business person. In China, much of the work goes through Taiwan or Hong Kong. Why, because foreign investors have built the factories to use the cheap labor. It most of the Indian and Chinese companies are doing work for foreign companies; they must be managed at some level by the people contracting the work. The US management will infect them from the top down. I can start an LLC in my basement or garage. If the product is good, my company will grow. Ask Joel if it is possible to start your own company in the good old USA. That is what keeps giving the US a technical advantage. |
| Thu 10 Jul | eclectic_echidna | >I recall something I saw once on 60 Minutes, I think. It was about how India is hopelessly bureaucratic. I was 'Commanding Heights' on PBS. IT grew too fast for the bureaucratic shackles to be placed on. Now they are rich and powerful, and they help protect their interests. We have our own worries. Internet Tax anyone??? -- ee |
| Thu 10 Jul | BigRoy | Andy may be right. Of course, he thought he was about AMD too. That being said, I find Dennis Forbes' comments interesting. I agree that there appears to be a conflict with off shore sourcing and telecommuting but it is real. I listened as a manager tried to explain how it is 'different.' That it is an 'organization' overseas. The fact is that managers think it is different and that is enough. As for wage concessions, there is nothing to concede. Unless you have a specialized skill you are an 'employee' or 'contractor'. Paid what the market and you will bear. I don't need concessions, the market has them built in. (supply and demand) Overseas high supply, low cost. Local, higher cost, supply doesn't matter. That the cost savings is an illusion does not matter either. It is making VPs, Presidents and that is enough. Finally, your comment on Canada is appropriate. NAFTA has given the Canadians leverage. They are 60% of the cost, none of the language barriers, and they undertand Americans. This week I saw a company close down a tech center, box it up and move it to Canada. They had laid everyone off last month. Then hired a group of Canadians to do the job. Without even asking for concessions. |
| Thu 10 Jul | anon | >> 'The entire issue of which country is being regarded as the 'Tech Superiority' is irrelevant when viewed from an economical and global point of view.' That's a really, really clever and interesting theory. So when Europeans discovered the New World and utilized weapons technology to decimate the indigenous peoples and colonize it for themselves, I guess this was 'irrelevant when viewed from an economical and global point of view'. Oh, and for that matter, when Europe used its technology during the imperial age to colonize the entire world, that was irrelevant. Oh, and when the US developed the nuke and the allies won the Big One, well, that was 'irrelevant when viewed from an economical and global point of view'. Oh yeah, and given that the greatest concentrations of wealth are still in North America, Europe, Australia, and Japan - all highly technologically advanced states - well, this is just, you know, 'irrelevant when viewed from an economical and global point of view'. That's a great and clever and smart and good theory. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Philo | Why the US will lose technical superiority: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/rebeccahagelin/rh20030709.shtml If the gov't is taking half your money and giving it to those who won't work, the incentive to make money drops. This follows in the footsteps of the previous poster who commented on 'India won't challenge us because of their bureaucracy' - be careful. All it takes is one charismatic, enlightened leader to put India's house in order (i.e. get the local potentates in line and streamline everything) and IMHO the US and India could switch places before you know what's happened. Philo |
| Thu 10 Jul | Christopher Wells | Philo, for 'bureaucracy' you need to read 'bribes'. Also, a single leader, be he even the Mahatma Ghandi, wouldn't do it: India is literally more 'provincial' than the US, and doesn't have even the little centralisation you see in the USA. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Jeff Kotula | Philo, The idea that most of the poor are simply too lazy to work is a myth that just lets the rest of us who enjoy the benefits of existing within, not outside, the economic power structure of the country pretend that it is solely due to our own merit. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Ah, some good conversation here. Dennis Forbes made some good points. I think 'Wealth Superiority' is where the real struggle lays at. In a global marketplace, not only are we redefining who is doing the work, but who is doing the buying. You can't bankrupt middle class America and simultaneously sell them new Fords. India and China may become more wealthy, but they're a long way off from being as wealthy as America, and the exchange rate will kill you. So even if you threaten to take their jobs away with global free trade agreements - and most of free trade is actually intra corporation, like Ford will make parts in Mexico and ship them up to the US to be assemled - who's going to buy all these products now? BTW, I worked with a company that had Indian developers in the US, and Indian developers in India. The ones in the US were making rediculously little money - I practically made more per hour than they made per day. I have no idea what their housing was like, and I practically don't know how they fed themselves on a day to day basis. Anyway, the workers in India we communicated with rarely. We assigned tasks to them that didn't require us to communicate with them regularly. Besides, most of the programming staff from India was made to stay until 9 or 10:00 at night anyway, so by then calling India became easier as their day was just beginning - India's around 10.5 or 11.5 hours or something off from us. Worse than India was Singapore, who was exactly 12 hours off from us. Most of the organizations that are going to be outsourcing work to India and China are global organizations anyway, and have already figured out how to deal with these things. As far as getting over the cultural issues, that's easy. Fire the CTO and hire an Indian CTO, and then bring in Indian middle managers. I saw it happen, but only just now understood the reason. I thought it was the CTO bringing in the Indian work, but now I realize it's the other way around. This way you only have to deal with one or two people whose culture is different from yours - and these people have been in the US long enough to get along with Americans anyway. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Tom Vu | The US is the epicenter of entreprenurial culture. It is actually the only country I can think of that it is better to be an entreprenuer than an employee (if you are at least average). The tax system encourages this and the business system encourages this. Other countries are mainly great task doers that do not create anything unless the US goes there and starts something or these countries are dependent on a commodity and run by corrupt oligarchs. The US may lose technical mediocrity but not superiority. |
| Thu 10 Jul | T. Norman | >'Already I've heard that, with all costs, an Indian software engineer is 60% of the cost of a US engineer. Big deal. You can find that value in Canada.' Most US companies don't have the management skill and software development practices to enjoy that net savings of 40% even if the Indian programmers worked for $1/day. But the executives who promote outsourcing constantly tout the fact that Indian programmer salaries are only 10-20% of US salaries, as if that is the only cost involved. Outsourcing will grow as long as they can spin the numbers to create the perception that they are saving the company money. It is easy to hide the likelihood that a project would have taken half the time or half the people and been more maintainable if it were done in-house instead, because the companies don't have good statistics to determine how long their own in-house work should take. Intangible costs like the increased security risks are even easier to hide from the bottom line. Offshore outsourcing is hot now because of the bandwagon effect, not because it truly is a huge cost saving opportunity. If genuine cost savings were the real motive, why was offshoring so much less common 5 years ago when American developers were hard to find and even harder to keep and Indian developers earned less than half of what they do now? No, they preferred to throw megabucks at any fool who knew anything related to the Internet, because that's what everybody else was doing at the time. If offshore outsourcing only occurred where the projects and clients are such that there are true and genuine opportunities for cost savings, it would be growing much slower than it is now and would not be much of a threat to US programmers or the US economy. Telecommuting hasn't taken off like it should because there hasn't been a bandwagon for it, even though it could save zillions in office real estate costs and salaries (many people would accept a slightly less salary to work for a company that lets them telecommute). Like the bandwagons that sent the Nasdaq to 5000 and had some stocks increasing by 1000% in a few months only to become penny stocks within the next year, the offshore bandwagon could cost the US economy millions of jobs in various sectors if executives continue to follow the herd. |
| Thu 10 Jul | John Rosenberg | Lower cost has nothing to do with technical superiority. Everyone seems to have the wrong idea in this discussion. If we loose our superiority it will be because of a declining education system here in America, and vastly improving ones in other parts of the world. That goes for secondary education, as well as post secondary education. IIT is a perfect example of what's to come. The key for the United States is to make large investments into improving schools, and importing the best talent into this country. The stuff people learn in math and science in an undergraduate education should be taught in High School. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Tom Vu | John Rosenberg: Your arguement to increase the value of education is moronic. The US has always been of a lesser intellect than the rest of the world (mostly internationally ignorant). Creating the hype and selling it to the world is what the US is good at and will continue to succeed at. IIT may very well be owned by devry just taking gullible people's money. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | John - insulting everyone, and then putting forth an argument that's already been stated isn't a good way to win an argument. I suspect that the US's superiority has more to do with it's vast natural resources, and it's lack of compunction at exploiting anyone and everyone. We're a relatively new nation, and have vast land at our disposal - our growth was bound to be explosive. We have all the farmland and natural resources (except a few, like oil) that we could need to grow and sell to ourselves and export to the rest of the world. Unlike other countries, we don't have to worry much about war on our own soil, and even if we did, we have states larger than most nations in Europe. The political system also, as someone mentioned earlier, encourages people to create vast empires that are pretty much free of morals and consequence, able to hire children in one part of the world to create products to sell to themselves and others. Anyone who knows about America's history knows that it was built on the backs of slaves and poor laborers. You only have to go as far back as the Civil War & Charles Dickens to see that. I don't see what education has to do with either of these. The average american *can* be dumb and do their job - working in Wal Mart or pressing metal in a factory isn't exactly skilled labor. Innovation is going to happen where it happens, and I suspect that innovators around the world will be attracted to the US because of the way our laws protect both innovation and somewhat monopolistic practices, not to mention our quality of life. The Internet is still expensive in much of the world, television isn't as plentiful, nor is air conditioning and even running water. I suspect that the rest of the world will as a matter of course experience an increadible growth spurt as they catch up to our standard of living. The poor, or at least those who control them, will become wealthy as money pours in to areas where labor is cheap. Whether or not this will lead to an American downfall, I can't really predict. |
| Thu 10 Jul | John Rosenberg | Wow, what a way to take things out of context. |
| Thu 10 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Thank you. |
| Fri 11 Jul | John Rosenberg | Tom, you're actually right. Everyone knows the smartest people come from Israel. |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | Apparently I didn't follow my own advice, and I insulted John. I apologize, it's a perfectly legitimate argument. No hard feeelings? |
| Fri 11 Jul | Simon Lucy | Complaining about the quality of management and then stating you don't have to be very smart to be a manager reeks a little of special pleading and ignorance. In fact in management you have to be pretty smart. To be effective you have to understand what those you manage do, and you have to understand what those that require whatever it is your people create need. Translating back and forth between those groups is not unsophisticated. Apart from that there are all the budgetary and political issues to take care of; the welfare and potential of the people you're responsible for;health and safety issues;discipline and motivation. Are there enough managers that can do that? No there aren't and that is mostly down to recruitment policies and attitudes which reared their head again in the 90's that if you couldn't do the job technically, management was where you went. Its a myth that the US has technical superiority either now or at any time. What is available in the US is capital for converting maybe ideas into possible products and to leave that capital there for longer before calling the return back in. Technology knows no borders now, it isn't a property or resource that an individual country can lay claim to or withhold from their neighbours in order to gain an advantage. Grow up. |
| Fri 11 Jul | www.marktaw.com | > Technology knows no borders now, it isn't a property or resource that an individual country can lay claim to or withhold from their neighbours in order to gain an advantage. < Despite the ad hominem attacks, there are a lot of interesting ideas being thrown around. A country can have a technological advantage. This shows itself during wartime - better codes & code breakers, better weaponry, etc. The Atomic Bomb, air superiority, and even tanks and guns are obvious examples of nations having technological superiority, and i don't think anyone here would argue that whoever had these had the advantage. If we can make parallels between commerce and warfare, this still holds true. Removing obvious trade barriers - i.e. import tax that artificially increases the cost of foreign produced products - the person who can make the highest quality product cheapest and market it the best, basically wins. We saw a shift in automobile manufacturing from US to Japan a while back, and I'm positive a lot of the Japanese advantage was in technology. The US had been building cars for a long time and still used old methods, partly entrenched becuase of the power of the unions, and partly because of management's short-sightedness. So we're not talking about a nation monopolizing techonology and preventing other nations from having it. We're talking about a nation using technology in a way that's better than other nations. If the US is lazy, they may suffer from a Clayton Christensen (q.v.) style dilemma where foreign companies nibble away at our product lines, scraping away the bottom stuff we're happy to get rid of until we eventually find ourselves stuck doing a few things badly. The classic example of this is US Steel and Bethlehem Steel. US Steel was the giant monopoly that nobody could topple, and Bethelem steel innovated ways to produce custom extrusions for less money than US Steel - US Steel was glad to be rid of that expensive to make, low profit margin stuff... And Bethelehem kept nibbling away until one day they became the dominant steel/iron manufacturers in the nation. (I may have screwed up the names of these companies - reversed them or otherwise). While I suspect the US's laws & foreign policy will protect US corporations & interests from this to some extent, as nations like China & India become economic powerhouses by sheer force of population, this may become less and less of a factor. * Clayton Christensen, The Innovator's Dilemma http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875845851 |
| Fri 11 Jul | Stephen Jones | One of the points about cars is that the US manufacturers only made cars for the US (and the Gulf). US subsidiaries in Europe were wholly independent. The result was that the Japenese, and independent European manufacturers, could make cars for the whole world, but the big three were concerned only with the home market. They couldn't even be bothered with getting their cars in Japan to have the steering on the right side. Then they complained about protectionism. US cars are intended for countries with wide flat roads, where petrol is cheap, and speeds are restricted. As a result they couldn't sell in the competitors' markets. When they do produce a model people want, like the Grand Chrerokee Jeep, then plenty of people buy it. As for steel, I was involved in training the staff of a new steel mill in Saudi. Various staff were sent to the US, Mexico, India and there was training from the UK. Opinions were definite that the one professional organization of the four was the Mexican one, particularly in the question of empowerment of workers, training and new skill learning. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Johnny Bravo | A friend of mine made an interesting statement about the qualification of managers: Who's more suitable for a management position: An MBA with all A levels, or an MBA with all C levels? The C level one, because he has proven he can sustain constant pressure and prospect of failure. On a different note, regarding future prosperity in India and China: one needs to take into consideration that there won't be 500 million middle-class workers/software developers having been outsourced from the rest of the world in neither country, perhaps not even 50 million. But those with the 'outsourced' jobs will have to support the hundreds of millions of unemployed in both countries. Even today, China is said to have some 100 million homeless day-workers traveling across the country. They are driven by the outlook for 'wealth for everyone, everyone can make it', similar to the American Dream. Let's see if China can handle their disappointment coming in the next decades. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Entrepreneur | One thing will save us: Innovation comes from small companies and individuals. There is still an incentive for the next Bill Gates to come up with the 'next big thing'. And Bill (as I understand it) didn't get his technical skills from school. He did it relatively independently. But, remember, innovation is not about creating some NEW tecnology (that' INVENTION). Innovation is about taking what's there now and making something just a little better. E.g., rewriting Unix as Dos, or as Linux. Innovation is where the wealth is. And, hey, no need to knock wealth. If wealth is gathered legitimately, through a free exchange ('here's $100 for your program') then it's a very good measure of how much benefit you've brought to society. more wealth=more benefit (If it's a free exchange). Look at the riches guy in the world. He also got is money (for the most part) through free exchange. He didn't twist anyone's arm to buy Windows 3.1. It was technically inferior to Apples' O/S but it was dos-compatible. |
| Fri 11 Jul | T. Norman | >'He also got is money (for the most part) through free exchange. He didn't twist anyone's arm to buy Windows 3.1.' He got to be the richest by twisting computer manufacturers' arms to ensure that they ONLY sold computers with Windows 3.1, denying most consumers the free choice to purchase PCs with other operating systems. |
| Fri 11 Jul | Insane in the membrane | The USA is not superior, its just that the rest of the world has an 'Inferiority Complex' |
| Sun 13 Jul | EastIndian | ... or maybe the USA has a superiority syndrome?!?! |
| Sun 13 Jul | www.marktaw.com | I think that's more likely. I was backpacking around the US and most of the people I ran into were foreign... The people from the US I ran into were just travelling to one place and then going back home. I'm gonna go to Europe next year, so I can test out whether or not this holds true on the other side of the pond - do people from Europe mostly travel Europe on short trips while Americans mostly backpack around? I think we have this belief - especially in New York - that we have everything here, so why go anywhere else? I'm sure it's the same for technology... Every time we think another product is superior (such as cars) it's because the Germans or Japanese are fanatical and really sort of off their rocker dedicated to work - they're closer to machines than humans, and that's how we psychologically justify that someone else can make a product superior to ours - 'We could if we wanted to, but we're not crazy enough to do it. Besides we invented the thing, they've just been watching and learning from us, it's only because the adopted our culture after WWII that they have the drive to do this anyway. And in a few years, we'll come out with something even better anyway.' But I could easily be wrong. |
| Sun 13 Jul | Alyosha` | Philo: in regards to [ http://www.townhall.com/columnists/rebeccahagelin/rh20030709.shtml ]: '[I pay state sales, registration and gas taxes] ...and the state's going to be all-magnanimous and extend to me the *privilege* of driving on its roads?' Well, golly gee whiz. Roads don't build themselves. The gas tax is among one of the most fair taxes around -- the more you drive, the more tax you pay. Ms. Hagelin is doing no more than bellyaching about paying for services she uses every day. I have no patience with freeloaders. 'If the gov't is taking half your money and giving it to those who won't work, the incentive to make money drops.' I got my first paycheck on Friday. 31.1% of that went to paying for various federal taxes (including the parts that my employer pays for Social Security and Medicare). Welfare cost 19.2 billion and federal unemployment about 4 billion in 2003 -- out of a 2128 billion dollar budget. So between the two, they eat up about 1.1% of the federal budget, or about 0.3% of my paycheck. So, no, the government is not giving taking half my money and giving it to those who won't work. |
| XP founder explains how.... | Wed 09 Jul | www.marktaw.com |
| Sorry if this has been posted before. Its a brief interview with the guy who created extreme programming. Working smarter, not harder: An interview with Kent Beck XP founder explains how better applications can arise from the ashes of failure Extreme Programming (XP) founder Kent Beck likes to say he made up XPs fundamentals during a particularly troubled project in 1996. While strictly true, from talking to him you sense hed really been formulating the process for quite some time. Find out what Kent thinks about the contribution of the Java platform to software developments success (or lack thereof) in this exclusive developerWorks interview. http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-beck/?open&ca=dgr-jw16j-beck |
| Thu 10 Jul | And the horse you rode in on | The thing I found interesting was this comment: dW: Is the Java language a good tool for producing quality products? Beck: Java is so pessimistic. You have this compiler saying, 'I'm not sure this program isn't going to run so I won't run it.' I find that attitude disturbing in a program. I notice that the safety in pessimistic languages is an illusion. Well, he completely dodges the question, but the answer is probably even more interesting. I'd have thought that static type checking is like a set of unit tests you get for 'free'. Given that XP is heavily into extensive unit testing, I'd have thought you'd be happy to have it. After all, any unit test written by the compiler is one less that you have to write. OTOH, I suppose it can make the 'constant change' a bit harder to do, since you spend more time on types and making the compiler happy. |
| Thu 10 Jul | anon | Bruce Eckel debates this point, static typing and unit tests. http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0025 |
| Thu 10 Jul | And the horse you rode in on | Well, I'll state upfront I'm disinclined to trust Bruce Eckel because I think his books are worthless driven not much above 'Learn X in 24 hours!' ... Anyway, I think there's two things here: a) Test is better than no test. Yes, we know that, it hardly takes a rocket scientist to work that one out. My point is that a statically typed language already runs some tests for you. I didn't say that it runs all the tests you need. b) Python is greater than C++ for productivity No argument from me here. I'm a python admirer myself. But that has as much to do with the vast number of other ways its superior to C++, even setting aside their respective type systems. Python vs C++ is a ridiculous comparison, because they have virtually nothing in common. JavaScript vs Java is probably a better match, and even then, I'm going to offend someone if I try to make it, so I wont. ;) I'm undecided on the strong vs weak type checking. I think the way it's implemented in Java and C++ is needlessly restrictive, but I also know there are other languages that have strong type checking and dont get in your way as much. Not having used such a language 'in anger', I can't say I'm sure I prefer one or the other. As for testing, well, its good for some things. Other things are damn hard to test (something which few advocates of XP style testing ever seem to acknowledge). Furthermore, there's some evidence that reading code finds bugs faster than testing. I guess that plays into the idea of pair programming somewhat. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Crimson | Interesting read. Few random thoughts... -The solution to the Chrysler software mess had nothing to do with XP (at least in the answer Beck gave). Basically, it seemed like 'all' Beck did was limit feature creep, set milestones, and work through them. - The thing about design patterns *feels* right. I've seen a number of cases where the use of a design pattern makes no explicit sense and is being used 'just to be used'. - The evils of obfuscated code. Of course this has been talked about by many experts, but I'm glad to see him repeating it here. - I agree with another poster about him completely dodging the question about Java and quality products. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Crimson | As far as unit testing is concerned, I think 'horse' missed Eckel's point. Unit tests subsume type-checking, so type-checking become redundant. Thus no extra benefit is gained from type checking. |
| Thu 10 Jul | Peter Ibbotson | Eckel has missed the good things that static type checking gives (Personally I agree with his Java Exception argument, but then so did the C# designers). Having spent so long programming in VB where we use things of type object. We often get runtime errors out in the field were some static type checking at compile time would have sorted the the problems (Now we |