| last updated:07 Jun 2004 15:59 UK time |
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| JOS Statistics - Recent Comments (Comments added for week ending Sun 06 Jun 2004) | View Other Weeks |
| Is the tide now going against Open source? | Sun 06 Jun | Albert D. Kallal |
| It is interesting, but about 2, or 3 years ago, it seemed that open source was going to change the world as we know it. Companies like Oracle, Sun, and the incredible IBM were all making waves, and jumping on the Open source band wagon. Announcements were occurring daily. However, I see a few trends, and a few problems right now. In fact, I am not only seeing Open Source loosing steam, but I am now seeing a backlash in the industry against OS. I am only being a messenger here, but I am getting a lot of feedback, and much of it is not very good for the OS community After all, business has the FINAL SAY on how successful software will be. I also should state that I do have software of mine running on Linux. (in USA, France, Italy, Germany, Canada. and likely a few other Countries I am not remembering just right now) I am not a dreamer, nor do I work on “hope” that things should be the way we WANT them to be. I try to see things as they are. Anyway, to me, what is REALLY important is the kind of feedback I am getting from companies and business that are using Open Software (OS) systems like Linux. There is some real serious problems. The first one is I am seeing is usability, and ease of use. Right now, some of the open source stuff is really starting to show its weak spots. You see, now that some companies were sold the open source bills of goods, then they now are also are now seeing the downsides. I was at the Tech Ed show in Edmonton on Wednesday, and during the lunch break I was talking to a long time client of mine. He is an accounting guy that over the years hired developers like me to help him build and integrate his accounting systems into vertical markets that he sells into. He is a typical VAR type software vendor. This VAR/owner of this company also does a good portion of software development himself. However, he is more accountant then hard core developer. Hence, this VAR also brings in subcontractors guys like me from time to time to help him with the more difficult coding stuff.. Anyway, he was complaining to me as to how hard some system administration stuff was on his Linux box. In fact, he actually said he wished he had went with windows NT (aka windows 2000 server). In his case, the D3 raining database system that his accounting software runs on can run on windows NT, or run on Linux. He went the Linux way. Some of my software also runs on Raining Data’s D3 multi-valued database system, and thus explains why my software is running on some Linux boxes around the world. Anyway, the first problem or complaint that this VAR guy had to me was his Linux support guy is ALWAYS coming in to tweak a whole bunch of settings (and, lack of standard settings for how things should be done seems to come up here!). Worse, is even simple things like setting up printers on the network requires this var to bring in a support guy. In other words, what is nearly automatic, and trouble free in windows is a royal pain for this var guy to manage. This is not really a question of having a good Linux admin, but the fact of setting up printers and stuff like that SHOULD NOT cause this fairly computer literate person to get stuck (and have to bring in a Linux pro all the time). He now wishes he went with NT. Of course, making this situation worse was here we are are Tech Ed watching some of the tech net demos and how MS server administration is SO easy as compared to Linux. So much so, that this guy is cringing. Without question, having known this guy for years, he would have little trouble with setting up printers for a windows server. (I sure I could too). However, setting up printers and drivers for Linux? (you are kidding ..right?). This is a typical business environment. There are a lot of companies in the 1 to 25 pc range that do NOT have a full time admin. These companies using Linux are experiencing more difficulty then they should. Further, the cost of finding people to come in and setup a printer etc is MORE then what the windows side is (lots more people can set a printer in windows!). Further, with stuff like the SBS (small business server…a instant business in a box server from MS, this case is even FURTHER in favor of using MS. You see, for these types of business, you got a typical server, and anywhere from 5 to 25 windows boxes. A good number of business of course go with a Linux box, but run windows clients (you got that killer application called samba, and real nice box of goodies do come with Linux). Up to this point, things seem ok with either choice. However, now that MS is pre-packaging the small business server, then you get virtually everything you need to run the business in a box. In fact, you get a sweet break on MS pricing of exchange server, and a bunch of other stuff. What is incredible is that this kind of offering was not done sooner! I mean, it has been, what 6 or more years that we purchase pc’s with the OS installed? In fact, when I look at the cost of SBS, you actually save A huge whack of money since you don’t even have to bring in someone to install, and setup a TON of software (the price break + not having to install and setup a huge amount software makes so much sense. Just saving the installing, and initial setup of all this software is worth a lot in terms of INITIAL support costs. MS really should call this Instant business in a box server. Of course, a business does NOT setup a server everyday, so this cost issue might not be too great. However, anyone who can turn on a pc can get SBS running. However, what is even MORE important here is the new CLIENT PC administration that these systems offer. You see, today, much of the cost of running a small business system is keeping the CLIENT PC’s updated. With SBS you can now manage software updates, and even software installs. I mean, why in the year 2004 do we actually send a tech around to each pc to install a new version of office, or stuff like a new version of Simply Accounting clients on each pc? In other words, MS is doing what it does best, and is leveraging their server products to work WITH THE windows desktop. This makes management of client pc’s VERY easy. This stuff is getting VERY slick. So, you got 35 pc’s hooked up to the server. You need to roll out new Excel, or whatever to the sales department. However, does your server let YOU manage all the pc’s, group polices, AND software installs? And virtually everything else you need to do from a central location? Hum, you still want to run Linux and samba now? Forget it! That Linux box will do NOTHING to reduce your client pc support costs. MS is going to kill Linux in the small business service market with this product. It is so slick, and it is easy to use. It is all pre-installed (sql server, web services, software updates, exchange server (mail etc. etc.)…the whole thing is “ready” to go. That var guy of mine would have been “ready” to go if he went with a sbs box. The real key here is the client pc management stuff. I will say that the pc management stuff is not quite as good as the big corporate edition of sms from Microsoft (sms = system management sever = a system to install and maintain software to all client pc’s in a large company. This system also manages windows update, and can save internet bandwidth by having client pc’s get their updates from internal servers..and not ms). So, the SBS does not have full SMS, but it sure the hell is nice. You get the ability to update software on each pc in your office. (good bye to that tech guy that runs around from pc to pc to pc to pc to pc to pc to pc to pc…). So, a real large portion of your costs are NOT the server, but CLIENT pc support. Products like SBS are winning big time. You have no idea how slick, and how cool some of the system management goodies that has been setup on SBS. Further, even general system admin stuff has been cleaned up, and made VERY easy to use with a lot more wizards. This means that those computer savvy business owners (or self appointed tech support guy from the accounting department can do this stuff). For sure, for more difficult setup stuff, these companies will STILL call in their tech support guy, but MOST of the time you can do this stuff on your own. (and, there is a heck of a lot more support guys in the yellow pages for windows if you need them anyway). And, I know for a fact that this VAR friend of mine I was talking to could EASLY install and setup and maintain printers for his network if he had SBS. Right now, he is not happy, and is spending WAY too much on support (he now regrets having chosen Linux). For those companies that got sold Linux to save money, they are now seeing REAL increases in software support costs. So, I am touching on two VERY important issues here: 1) does your SERVER system have a GREAT bunch of pc client management tools built in? 2) Can someone with not super server admin skills setup a printer and other stuff? And, before anyone gets on my case, you all know who Eric S. Raymond is. right? I have his book..and in fact purchased 3 hard copies. They are all currently lent out right now to my friends. To anyone who I lent the books….if you are reading this…I want my copes back!!!...they are hard cover editions! You can read what Eric has to say about setting up printers. and how he BLASTS the Linux community here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html However, I had the above feed back long BEFORE I read Eric’s article. In other words, REAL business people I am talking to are now complaining about how difficult it is to do basic system admin stuff on a Linux box. They are complaining how they have to ALWAYS bring in tech support for stuff that is dead simple with a windows server. I remember how hard networking used to be back in the pre-windows days. However, this hardness sure made Novell a lot of money. I can now setup a small network of pc’s in my sleep. I assure you I am only some dumb developer, and not even close to being a network support guy…but that stuff is really automatic right now in windows. And, that Linux box??? That Linux box does NOTHING to save on client pc support (this is where SBS is really winning the battle). The next issue is one of help systems, and also one of user feed back: MS is now integrating their help systems with the on line communities. On-line help, and even systems to work with newsgroups are actually being integrated into MS help systems. Office is first, and other products are to follow (default help in office 2003 is on-line). What this means is that MS is using USER feedback (not developers ) to figure out where usability problems exist in their products. I can say from personal experience, the results in office 2003 are simply astounding. (the help for some stuff I used has NEVER been better, where as previous editions sucked). Again, this is all about the user experience, and how you can make things easy for users. It is no surprise that MS is MUCH better then Open Source for usability. However, MS is accelerating the use of on-line communities and integrated help systems into their products. What is critical about this process is that feedback is being feed to their usability experts on how to make their products work better. This usability system is much like the feedback system that open source uses to fix bugs. MS is thus harnessing the user communities out there in a MUCH better fashion then the open source guys. In fact, MS is using the VERY SAME model that makes Open Source possible! What is different here, is that MS is applying these concepts of connectivity to end users…and not ONLY to developers. Who the heck is going to start gathering these usability issues, and customer support issues for Linux? (they better wake up. as this is so important, that I see battle after battle being lost unless this issue is addressed by the open source community). And, MS is doing this help stuff with a well thought out plan. In my visits to Redmond, and seeing the sophistication on how they are integrating the internet, and customer support INTO their products, I am now actually beginning to realize that open source is not even in the same league in terms of delivering consumer products. MS is so out maneuvering the open source people by a wide margin on their own game of using the connectives of the communities at large. Open source seems to have zero response to this issues, and then wonder why they can’t make inroads into consumer software? The next issue I am going to deal with is the issue of software quality. To me, the Open Source model of bug fixing is rather IMPRESSIVE. Release often, and fix bugs in a rapid fashion. Further, the speed of software development is not hurried, and usually results in very high quality products. Bugs can rapidly be fixed by developers around the world (how the updates will get back down to the consumer is still a big issue. And, while developers can work on bug fixes…who, and how does a consumer of this software tell about the bugs? MS is again that MS is doing a better job on this feed back stuff that OS invented!). What about MS in this regards, and in terms of software quality? I remember reading stories about a us citizen called W. Edwards Deming. Mr. Deming is often credited with the rise of the auto industry in Japan. This man brought statistical quality control to the Japan auto industry (the north American industry did not listen to him….well, they now use all of his ideas in quality control to day). MS right now is going through a revolution that is likely LARGER and more important to the software industry then what the auto industry experienced. I can tell you from first hand when running office 2000 on a winxp box, it was not the most stable product I have used. In fact, I would rate the quality and stability of office 2000 as quite poor. Then a new release of office xp came out. The improvement of office xp is STUNNING. Again, I see clients all day, and talk to as many developers and people I can. Virtually all I talk to find a HUGE improvement in the quality of office xp (2002). What the hell happened to make this release SO MUCH better then office 2000? Answer: You see, MS is now integrating Dr Watson error reporting into most products. The results are amazing. Office XP is the first product released from MS that had fixes, and quality improvements based on the “send error reports” that Dr. Watson sends. So, while we might not like Dr Watson…it is a tool that is CONSIDERABLTY being expanded to other products. Soon it will be a standard part of ALL software products. A graph of errors in MS’s bank of servers that munches and crunches these Watson errors all day will look like: | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * The above graph is the kind of bug errors graphs the support teams look at all day. The most common and largest bugs are on the left. So, what happens if we fix the first 8 most common bugs in the stats curve above? Well, you don’t have much of a cure left to plot do you? Well, actually what happens is that they chop out the first 8 bugs fixed, and then you stretch out the curve to take up the above grab space, and then re-draw the curve again. You now get the same curve again, but the bugs you are fixing are of course of a much lower frequency. You attack the bugs at the top of curve again. The next graph you draw will look VERY MUCH the same as above. You do this over and over (this is actually what MS does in this case!) So, the curve looks the same. but you are working on a smaller set of bugs. You keep hammering this curve down, and all those pc’s all over the world are sending your HUGE bank of servers bug info in real time. In fact, MS will now even inform some software vendors that THEIR software is causing stability problems on windows! (again, who the heck is going to do that for open source?). I can tell you right now, that the quality of new products is soaring at MS. The increase in stability, and reduced number of problems is simply amazing here. The improvements I see in terms of this process is very noticeable to me in office xp. I am also seeing this in office 2003 now. This once again shows how MS is beating the open source people at their own game (that game is one of using users to gather bugs and problems, and then feeding them to a central location). It is just that MS has automated these software bugs systems right into their products, and again open source is being left so far behind. Where is the automated bug reporting systems for open source software? And, a even larger problem exists as to where will the bugs be sent? And who is the team that spends on all day munching and crunching these numbers with the huge bank of servers required to support the volumes that dr Watson generates? These built in feedback and error reporting systems is creating a revolution at ms, as they can now instantly see what the hell happened (why are people getting a gpf?). When MS has a problem, then they know real fast! Even more incredible, this bug process functions faster then what humans can do to gather these problems. Further, the REAL big issue here is how software interacts with other software. You might have a system problem, but that problem is ONLY due to the fact that you go a old version of sql server, and are running some weird virus protection system. MS plans even further bug integration into their systems. I see this as a quality revolution at least as large as what Mr. Deming did for the Japan auto industry. We are JUST now experiencing the first batch of products based on this process. In a few years, competitors that don’t do this will be left even further behind. This whole process can’t be built over night….and has taken MS quite a while to build. (this is a amazing lesson in software quality control). Another issue here is use of standards: One of real sticking points with propriety products like Office/Word has been the use of propriety document standards. While the open source community is STILL arguing what format to use, all of office 2003 has great XML support. You can now create a cool looking formatted word document on a 1981 ibm pc using gw-basic, and simply write out XML…word will load it. (and wow. does it work great?). Have you guys seen the cool xml support in word and Excel. Once again, MS is taking a open text format. and running with it. Many have commented that Open Office looks a bit old, and tired already (in the range of the older office 97). The real problem I see here is that the gap in terms of help, support, and new features like XML support is actually means that ms Office is stretching out the lead over Open office. By the way, what great new features does Open office have? (and, how does the help and customer feed back system work? And, what is open source doing with open office in terms of the REAL NEED to secure company documents? I just see the gap getting wider between MS Office, and open office. That was NOT the case 3 years ago. Open office seems to have lost it direction, and does not seem to know what road, or where the product should go. How can Open Office know where to go without a strong company committed to its future direction? Who is going add digital rights management to open office (ms has the plugs in now. and MANY companies are just waiting to have protected documents that you can’t take home, or email to competitors down the street (you might not like digital rights management, but I know a lot of companies that will go ape over the ability to protect their documents. Companies used to be able to protect their documents by limiting who had keys to the file cabinets). So, now we have Point Share services from MS that does this (and, it also integrates a whole bunch of workflow management into office also). Worse, is now the deal between MS and Sun means that Sun wants to distance it self from open office. I think most would agree that Sun opened sourced office as a tactic to just hurt MS and the office/windows franchise. Sun has NO intention of battling MS anymore. And, they have given up on this lets try and make MS hurt and bleed concept. Sun has too many troubles of its own, and it now needs, and wants peace with MS. The Open source community does loose with the MS/sun deal as sun is not so interested in Open Office as it once was. Hum, it looks like IBM might step in and take over Open Office (gee, what features did open office get via open souce after sun purchased the product anyway?). Mean while, while all this stumbling in open office is occurring, MS office just zooms aways with new great xml stuff, and the new digial rights via share point. And, also, lets not forget all the integrated help and bug feedback systems that MS now has in office to make the product even better next time around. So, just as people are starting to look at Open Office, things for the product don’t look that good, and Sun is not going to be much help anymore on open office. Between systems that support the desktop, and how MS is levering the MANAGEMENT of pc by their servers, and how they are using the Internet to improve both their quality, and the “users” experience is a long term issue..and will have long term effects in how the next versions of these software systems look. In the late 1970’s, things like structured programming came along to deal with the complexity of software. Then stuff like OO came along. Each time it allowed us to build more and more complex systems. Today, it is automated user feedback systems for BOTH bugs, and MORE importantly, feedback systems for USERS that use the product. These two concepts that MS is adopting is very much like Mr. Denning approach to quality control. And, more important, these tools allow ms to make the NEXT generation of software MORE complex then we can imagine now. And, look, the ms .net stuff is now finally coming of age. The open source community now needs a new model, or some serous updating to their existing model in terms of user feedback, and automated bug systems. The current open source model is being pummeled by MS right now. Times are changing and what worked 5 years ago for development of software will NOT work now. The industry is adopting new tools now just like we always did (structured program, oo etc). The general software community must start to adopt these new systems of integrating the customer into the software process, or they will loose big time. MS is now hijacking the BEST ideas that open source offers in terms of user communities…and running with it…. Once again competitors to MS are making really big mistakes…. Albert D. Kallal Edmonton, Alberta Canada kallal@msn.com http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tayssir John Gabbour | Sure, opensource is largely bullshit, and mainly exists because people aren't ready for Gnu. OTOH, putting software companies out of business is a Microsoft yardstick of success. Many 'opensource' groups have already claimed victory by accomplishing their goals. IBM claims to have profited from its opensource investments. Gnu claims wild success, and counts backlash as proof. Many skilled users never spend a penny on basic software like OSes and programming environments. Gnu and most opensource are making Microsoft bleed by accident. And it makes sense; Microsoft killed so many companies that the super-viruses are left, which can't really be killed. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Mike | WOW! That has got to be your longest ever post Albert. I enjoyed reading it. I especially liked 'While the open source community is STILL arguing what format to use' Well, their Unix guys. Arguing is second nature. Myself I am just wrapping up Mark Minasi's 'The Software Conspiracy: Why Software Firms Create Faulty Products, How They Can Harm You, And What You Can Do About It' It is a very interesting read. Basically the pc revolution is winding down. The leap from Dos to Windows was greater than from 95 to 98, etc. We are getting to the point where the best features to a lot of types of software are already discovered. According to him we are closing in on the time when competing on quality is going to matter. Microsoft does seem to be building in the architecture to do that. I also agree that most small businesses without a full time admin would be better off with Windows products, assuming they have someone qualified set up things like the servers and virus protection. You shouldn't need an admin to add a printer. On linux you need someone who can write printer drivers it seems. |
| Sun 06 Jun | hoser | Well, I'm still of the opinion that it all depends on what you're used to. You've brought up alot of anecdotal evidence - this and that - of how Linux is hard, yadda, but nothing specific. I'm integrating code into a 3rd party's VxWorks develpment environment, and they insist on doing development in Windows. Fine. It took them an entire day, expending the resources of several embedded software developers just to get VxWorks build to work on our code. Obscure nonsense? Hell yes. Specific to my situation? Absolutely. Much the same way as your Raining Data yadda, yadda, Linux tweaking app setting horror story goes. Onward... 'However, does your server let YOU manage all the pc’s, group polices, AND software installs? And virtually everything else you need to do from a central location?' HELLS BELLS! I can't even set up a reasonable policy such that I can permit my kids to run games and NOT install the latest virus/spyware across the entire friggin user/admin space of the game PC. 'you still want to run Linux and samba now?' Do it all the time. Even our church's secretary can handle that. Why is this hard? Set and forget. I can easily ssh in and config it from work when she has questions. 'I can tell you right now, that the quality of new products is soaring at MS. The increase in stability, and reduced number of problems is simply amazing here. The improvements I see in terms of this process is very noticeable to me in office xp.' Office is 10 years old for crying out loud. And its getting really, really good now!! Woohoo, have a party, let's go to Whistler! Fact is Microsoft is struggling outside Office/OS. Your particular view is very narrow, and perhaps in this specific view, Microsoft looks awesome. I can easily beleive that Microsoft and VARs can deliver great solutions from detist's office to an accounting firm of a couple hundred people. I can also believe that no one is going to take the time in OpenSource land to create an integrated solution to compete against Microsoft. It isn't that it cannot be done - it merely is a fact that no one cares. So what? Microsoft and its VARs can revel in their glory that this segment is squarely secure and so are their jobs. Again: goto Whistler and have a party. 'I just see the gap getting wider between MS Office, and open office. That was NOT the case 3 years ago.' Not I. Our office is fully in the Microsoft camp as far as the office suite goes. I use OpenOffice (except for one specific instance where tables and numbering were completely hosed, I had to make sure it wasn't OO that was screwed) and no one else knows the difference. We pass documents via email just like the idiots God created to do (never mind that we could use Perforce, but the Office crowd is TOO DAMN STUPID to figure it out, so we use email). Albert, your clients are MS centric, and thus so are you. So it should be. Software should be driven by requirements, and if MS fits those requirements best, then MS it should be. Just realize that what helps your clients does fit all. Additionally, open source software doesn't really care what Microsoft does or doesn't do. Its a non-issue. Perhaps Sun microsystems cares, and maybe IBM cares, but open source projects are not aimed at defeating Microsoft - which seems to be a premise of your argument. Open source provides... what open source provides. That's all. Don't like it? Move alond, nothing to see here. |
| Sun 06 Jun | hoser | Lots of typos. Hope you can figger the intent by context. Like does _not_ fit all. |
| Eric Sink -> Law #4: The Law of Perception | Sun 06 Jun | matt |
| This is so brutally true . . . In your closing paragraph regarding what product an ISV should construct. How do we discover the specific group of people w/ specific problems that are not being solved well by others? How do you avoid pigeon holeing your product to a specific group without a problem domain ? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tom H | Market research is a big field, for this reason. Eric has pointed out something that's completely obvious... |
| Another evening wasted | Sun 06 Jun | Gwyn |
| Yeah, thanks Microsoft. Tonight my laptop has decided that to show Network Connection Unavailable. It then finds an available network, I select it, press Connect.... and ..... Nothing. A few seconds later a helpful little balloon pops up to tell me that a network is available should I wish to connect to it... So I do it again... and nothing. This repeats ad infinitum. Well until I nearly sling the bastard across the room. Laptop and wireless used to work fine but I changed the access point for a (newer and supposedly better!) model. Then the wireless coverage wasnt as good and XP Home used to drop out. Always had difficulty reconnecting drives etc. so I upgraded to Professional expecting it to be better. So, here I am having spent yet another evening wasting my time trying to work out why XP has got its knickers in a twist. When are you Microsoft clowns gonna pull their finger out of your arse and deliver some QUALITY????? When I press the connect button I do not want everything to just go quiet, I want you to connect or fail to connect and give me some sort of fucking error message. And youd better make it a useful one too. So now I figure Ill reinstall XP. Thats the usual solution isnt it? Some strange shit happens, you reinstall the operating system. Used to do it all the time with MVS. Did we bollocks! |
| Sun 06 Jun | Gwyn | Just reinstalled bits of XP. Now when I try to explore the network I get the really useful message box: 'Unable to browse the network' 'The requested resource is in use'. What the flying testicles is that all about? What resource? The network? I should hope it IS in use. Sadly not by me! |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | I'm curious as to why you thought XP Pro would be better able to connect to your access point than XP Home... The manufacturer-provided drivers for your wlan card are the same either way ;) Try right-clicking on your connection and choosing 'View Available Networks.' If you've configured your network for WEP security you'll have to give it an encryption key before it can connect. If not, you'll need to check the box 'allow me to connect to this network even though it's not secure.' If you're getting poor coverage from your access point, you can put together a home-made signal booster. It's basically a piece of tin foil wrapped around some styrofoam or cardboard, crafted in a specific arc to bounce more signal back towards wherever you want it. There are directions on the net somewhere if you google for it. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Pavel Levin | If you hate it so much, switch to something else. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Gwyn | I didn't think XP Pro would improve the connectivity but more that it would manage to keep a better track of what it's got, being as it's much more network oriented (e.g. you can log on to a domain) With XP Home I had a drive mapped to a share on a domain but of course whenever you start XP Home at some point it has to ask you for your credentials on the domain... but actually a lot of the time it would just say that the network share could not be found (this is whilst the wireless connection was working!) so I had to unmap and then remap the drive to EXACTLY the same location.. and that would fool XP and it would let me access it. Weird shit also happened whenever the wireless connection would break and then remake. I presumed XP Pro would better handle the network breaks and at least make some sort of effort to remember what it was doing before.. It seems to... but there are just other problems. It's all shit, it just comes in different flavours. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Gwyn | Switch to what exactly??? Unfortunately Windows is the most suitable platform for me so I have little choice Yes I hate it and yes I loathe Microsoft for their pathetic approach to quality. These guys have got a few billion dollars in the bank... I mean, exactly how may people would you have to employ to make sure that when something goes wrong you get a complete and accurate error message? It's not exactly rocket science. On the other hand I love .NET (but visual studio is a bit, well, shit) so it's not just a blanket dislike. It's appropriate. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Greg Hurlman | 'Laptop and wireless used to work fine but I changed the access point for a (newer and supposedly better!) model. Then the wireless coverage wasn't as good and XP Home used to drop out. Always had difficulty reconnecting drives etc. so I upgraded to Professional expecting it to be better.' So you changed the access point, and when connectivity degrades, you blame your OS? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | There are some differences in networking features supported by XP Home and Pro, but from a connectivity standpoint, they are the same. I've always found Windows File Sharing (aka SMB protocol) to be a bit futzy (or 'wonky' if you speak the queen's english). I don't even used mapped drives. If they are giving you a headache, just put a shortcut to \\server\share on your desktop instead. Honestly though, it's all relative. MS products in general are pretty usable. No one can be expected to write 100% bug free code 100% of the time. Just try firing up a linux box and configuring you're WLAN, then come back and compare that to how hard XP made it for you ;-) |
| Sun 06 Jun | Mike | More TCO, eh? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Craig Thrall | If you have the option of using the drivers/config software that came with your WLAN card, use them instead of the XP native config. I was having problems with my NetGear MA111 until I switched to using the NetGear software...now I've got a little NetGear icon in my system tray and it doesn't disconnect from the AP every two minutes. |
| Sun 06 Jun | JWA | Sounds like you have the iee.. whatever security turned on but your router doesn't support it. The symptoms to that are the constant dropping of the connection every five minutes or so. Google it and you'll find all kinds of info. Hope that helps, --Josh |
| What I love about bicycle racing... | Sun 06 Jun | hoser |
| Totally OT. So what. . In a stage race, each day is a new race. Someone will try to pull off the impossible, and might just do it. . Good coverage thanks to OLN (Im watching reruns of Tour de Romandie as I type) . Sportsmanship: watching Riis beome domestique for Jan Ullrich in the 1997 Tour de France. Riis win TdF in 1996. circa Team Telekom. . Knowing that dragging my fat ass up an out of category climb would be a significant life event. They do it routinely at speeds many people can only manage on flat ground. . Watching Tyler Hamilton win a TdF stage with a broken collar bone. . Paul Sherwin, Phil Ligget, and Bob whatizname? Great commentary. . Watching Virenque gamble and win a stage. . Wondering what young Spanish climber will challenge Lance this year. OH BABY. |
| Sun 06 Jun | zizgzag | I agree with the above wholeheartedly. I bought a TiVo last year just so I wouldn't miss a second of TDF coverage, i've enjoyed the fact that TiVo also picks up the Giro, Sea Otter, and other great events. Woot! Cycling. |
| End users' computers rant | Sun 06 Jun | Freelance tech support guy |
| I am branching out into computer support. Yesterday I picked up a PC from a home user that wouldnt start. (It was XP, and would only get to a blue screen with an UNMOUNTABLE_BOOT_VOLUME message.) It was a damned Compaq with the usual !@^* dumbed down absolutely unhelpful recovery disk crap. Once I got it to boot, I checked it out with Spybot, Ad-Aware, Bazooka, and AVG Anti-Virus. Yee GOD. The damned box was absolutely *crawling* with bots, trojans, adware, viruses, etc. It took about 8-10 reboots and repeated scans with these tools to nail everything. My guess is that the spyware or some virus trashed some system files or even the file structure or caused a catastrophic shutdown with files still open and being written. I am just getting started doing this type of support (previous focus was the more desirable but dwindling SW development market). I guess Ive lived a sheltered life, keeping my computers behind NAT and firewalls, running Mozilla, and never trusting any popups that manage to get through. Any system that I control is orderly, sane, and well oiled. But... these people must have clicked on every, I mean every, single, friggin popup, ad, online coupon, banner, offer, and must have insisted on opening up every single email attachment. They must have read some article on end user internet security and deliberately set out to do everything that is not recommended. Of course, I will leave the best for last: this family shares a Road Runner connection with a hub, not a firewall, they do not even *know* about firewalls, and they had no anti-virus (they do now.) Their C: drives are probably just hanging out on their neighborhoods network segment, absolutely begging PLEASE, **PLEASE** MAP ME AND SHOVE SHIT INTO MY STARTUP FOLDER, MY OWNER HAS NO CLUE. My actual opinion: users should be required to be licensed in order to connect a computer to the public internet. Of course, because this kind of mess seems to be very common (the couple told me they had a *bunch* of friends who have similar problems) I am not above making a buck off it it.... There is NO way I would do this type of work for less than a consultants rate.... the idea of facilitating someones ignorance for less than a commercial rate seems obscene, as though youre facilitating wife-beating or drug trafficing. I now know why corporate tech support people are so pissed off and bitter. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Full name: | Welcome to users with adminitrator's rights! |
| Sun 06 Jun | Stephen Jones | --'I now know why corporate tech support people are so pissed off and bitter'--- Probably because they've got to work with people like you. Or because they're the typical generation X born losers that gripe on fuckedupcoder.whine. By the time the local doctor, personal trainer, aromatherapist, house hygiene consultant, feng shui expert, car mechanic and home finance consultant had been looking into different aspects of your, as far as they are concerned, hopelessly inadequate personal life, you would be feeling like the quivering mass of jelly you think your customers are. Face it, your customers are losers, but only because they have to pay a snivelling piece of sub-humanity like you. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | I agree that computer fix it guys should charge adequate rates. All the people in the not-so-nice above posting get paid handsomely for their services...so should you! Also, charging peanuts just encourages people to do stupid things to their computer (someone else will fix it!) However, we can't really blame them for their ignorance. I'm sure my car is begging for about a thousand things to be done to it, but hell if I know anything about it ;) FYI, tech support is all about the soft skills. If you're gonna do it for a while, better work on seeing things from the other point of view, or else you'll go mad. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Arnie | Mr Jones, are you serious with that tone? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Freelance tech support guy | >> Face it, your customers are losers, but only because they have to pay a snivelling piece of sub-humanity like you. >> Stephen Jones LOL! I love a good ad hominem flame. I am glad that internet distance makes you so brave, Stephen... and that you have ascended bodily into heaven and never experience exasperation. BTW, my discourse was regarding my work to avoid having to reformat their hard drive and lose their data and reinstall all their stuff... that is if I did the usual hamhanded 'simian IT support at the retail level' thing they would have a fresh copy of Win XP with no applications. Anyway. Don't get me wrong. I am respectful and courteous to prospects and customers. And I see some underlying factors at work. The main problem is that the PC market is filled with disinformation, that PCs are like toasters, no brain required, plug it in and use it and so what. My forte' is to deal with the people that are the casualties of this corporate irresponsibility. I do see the main problem: it's sort of a collusion between manufacturers of PCs who fail to provide decent user recovery resources beyond 'format the entire HD and lose all your work - IE, I had to use my own W2K Pro CD to use recovery console, which was absolutely not available in the Compaq dreck; Microsoft, with its head in the clouds marketing attitude that mundane user problems are not worth discussing; and utterly irresponsible broadband ISPs who do not attempt to educate their lusers on the importance of base firewall protection. I have a friend 3000 mi away with similar PC problems to these people. I would help him gratis if he were local. He tries to deal with retail stores and gets lied to and bullshitted continually. All the stupid f*ckwit kids working at Compusa and the like want to do is replace motherboards and bone the customer. My friend has NO trusted resource to use to solve stuff like this. I think I can make a living at this. But the level of chaos that vendors of PCs seem to thrive on to push their shit really apalls me. And they seem to prosper on an uneducated public. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | 'The main problem is that the PC market is filled with disinformation, that PCs are like toasters, no brain required, plug it in and use it and so what.' I disagree. I think the problem is that PC's *should* be like toasters, but aren't. Normal people don't want to play sysadmin. They want to write emails, surf the web, and send birthday cards to grandma. And we as technically educated people shouldn't expect any different of them. Now of course the utopia of problem free computing is a long ways off, and there are far too many individuals and entities out there preying on the PC user's incompetence, or simply ignoring their pleas for help. But be thankful for that, because when those things cease to be true, you'll be looking for a new career again ;-) |
| Sun 06 Jun | Mike | I think you should charge double the going corporate rate to fix home users machines for a few reasons. 1. Get that silly ass thought about lower TCO out of peoples minds. Maybe they won't pay big bucks. Well then have a S L O W pc and maybe try a mac cause you heard this doesn't happen to them. 2. You have to listen to them natter on about how their nephew could fix it in 10 minutes. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tayssir John Gabbour | Unhappy during your boomtime, Freelance guy? Things are as they should be. The net is still in early-adopter stage, and the machines haven't yet caught up to the human admins for providing endusers with a good experience. I understand your point, but if you look at history, you are likely to see this state of affairs is correct. If you are not independently wealthy, make your clients happy and press your advantage while you still can. Let the internet suffer from these viruses and make itself stronger. |
| Software development in New Zealand? | Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman |
| For a while Ive been thinking about leaving the US to work and perhaps even settle down. Ive actually worked overseas before for a few years (back in the 90s) and enjoyed it more than living in the US. The US IT job market being in the crapper, as well as the patent fiasco, makes overseas locations even more attractive. To the New Zealanders out there, or anybody else whos lived there -- what are the software job prospects like? I notice that IT jobs are on the governments shortage occupations list, so apparently there should not be too many legal barriers to working there, but how realistic is it to find an actual job there? I would be willing to visit for 3-6 months while searching. And how long would it take to get permanent residency there if I wanted to settle down? ... I hope they dont jerk prospective immigrants around for 5-10 years like what is done in the US. I know that salaries are lower than in the US, but are salaries within that sweet spot where they are high enough to live comfortably on, yet low enough that jobs rarely get lost to outsourcing? Or is getting laid off every year or two a common expectation for software developers? What could a person with 10 years experience and a Bachelors in CS expect? What are salaries like compared to the cost of living? How expensive are cars compared to the US (US car prices can be found at http://www.edmunds.com) ... does the government slap on high import duties to cars? What would it cost to rent a 2-bedroom apartment or townhouse in a semi-decent area in a city like Auckland or Wellington? |
| Sun 06 Jun | My Cousin Vinniwashtharam | Do you like Kiwi fruit? |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | You should be moving to Bangalore. |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | The tech jobs in Bangalore may be plentiful. But for a non-Indian, Bangalore can never be as nice to live in as New Zealand. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | Can't say unless you've been there, can you? Though, I must admit I've been only to the arse-end of the world and no lower! But, I do have a cousin who went, migrated to NZ and came back to Hyderabad after a very short stint. Then again different folks, different strokes. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Herr Herr | October 2002: The Economist magazine rated Melbourne, Australia as the #1 place in the world for ex-pats to live. Canadian and Scandanavian cities also rated very highly. New Zealand: Good things: Damn beautiful, breathtakingly beautiful, great lifestyle, outdoors stuff, excellent quality food. Bad things: A long way from anywhere - measure the distances on your map, even 2000 km from Australia. IT industry: Don't know too much, but average wages in NZ are just about as low as they can get in the OECD countries. In fact, some jobs are already outsourced TO NZ! However the cost of living is cheaper too in parallel with the lower wages. But it is unrealistic to go to NZ to make your fortune. Lifestyle: On an IT wage you will be able to avoid a nice house in a nice area. Cheap second-hand cars imported from Japan are all the rage. Go for an extended holiday first. Check it out. You really can't get a feel by what I or anyone else says. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Craig | I am lead developer for a medium sized call center vendor in Auckland. The market in New Zealand is definitely slumped at the moment, post 9/11, Americas cup etc. Business confidence is also low, due to a non-business friendly goverment. But all that said and done, there still seems to a quite a few jobs going, the problem we have found is getting quality people. We are constantly looking for motivated C++ and VB people, but all I see though the door is dross. People cultter up thier CV's with every 10min job they did using whatever is the new buzzword tech, instead of providing a clean track record of achievment. |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | 'But, I do have a cousin who went, migrated to NZ and came back to Hyderabad after a very short stint.' 'Back to Hyderabad' ... suggests the person is Indian, correct? I was speaking from the perspective of a non-Indian. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | Yes. Hence my last sentence. Enjoy your stay in Xena land! |
| Sun 06 Jun | no name | > I notice that IT jobs are on the government's 'shortage occupations' list The reason for this is that New Zealand, like Australia, is dumber than America. The governments are more easily sucked in by industry propaganda, such as skill shortages, and local workers are much less likely to complain. http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,9737686%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html For an American, you would immediately notice the relatively superficiality of the IT industry, and the dearth of quality jobs. Just as an indicator, New Zealand doesn't even have its own air force anymore. It couldn't afford it, so sold all its Skyhawk jets. A recent survey in Australia reported 18 percent unemployment among programmers. New Zealand would be no better. Most IT work is branch office stuff, providing support. That's in both New Zealand and Australia. Most of the big organisations that might be half decent already send big parts of their work to India. There have drops in IT enrolments at universities, so the universities, government and incompetent local IT groups have agreed to stop talking about the problems and talk about the 'looming shortage.' New Zealand's a nice country to visit or raise sheep. |
| Sun 06 Jun | the grass is always greener | Obviously you're thinking of a one way trip, because every dollar you earn will be halved or worse should you decide to return to the U.S. |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | Yes ... either I'd spend about 3-4 years there, with the goal of enjoying and learning from the experience, while accepting that I won't save much, and then come back to the US ... or if I *really* love it (and perhaps found a good Kiwi woman!) I'd stay. |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | 'A recent survey in Australia reported 18 percent unemployment among programmers. New Zealand would be no better.' Is that actually true? NZ != Australia. |
| Sun 06 Jun | no name | Here's a story about the survey. http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/business/0,39023749,39116285,00.htm NZ is more of a backwater than Australia. I'm not aware of actual figures from that country, but can see no reason it would have more healthy employment figures. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | I don't know about Software but the music in NZ sucks: http://www.wingmusic.co.nz/listen.html |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | Even if New Zealand is more of a 'backwater' than Australia, there still could be better employment prospects for an experienced programmer in NZ, if there are fewer programmers competing for each job and/or the lower salaries mean that fewer jobs are lost to outsourcing. Those two countries are linked in many ways, but it's not necessarily accurate to extrapolate from one to the other. |
| Sun 06 Jun | aKiwi | 'Most IT work is branch office stuff, providing support. That's in both New Zealand and Australia.' I've worked in Wellington, New Zealand, for the past 8 years. I don't think its fair to say that most work is support. There was a lot of new development undertaken here in the late 90's. Its dropped off a bit now (as it has everywhere) and there is now growing interest in integrating existing packages and products rather than solving all problems by cutting brand new code. As for the comments about unemployment in Australia, and the implication that it would be the same in NZ, its worth pointing out that NZ and Australia have somewhat different labor markets, so it's not necessirly accurate to assume similar unemployment rates just because we're in the same part of the world. I suspect there may well be unemployed programmers in NZ, although I don't know any personally. But if you're good at your job, and have marketable skills (C# and Java at the moment), then you've probably got little to fear from unemployment. There seems to be good demand at the moment for C#/.NET skills. Unfortunately, one reason for that demand is employers' insistence on prior experience. I think they are turning away good programmers, who could easily learn those technologies, in their quest to find people with experience. Check out www.seek.co.nz to see the kind of positions currently advertised. >Bad things: A long way from anywhere - measure the distances on your map, even 2000 km from Australia. I'd second that. The modern communcations make the world seem smaller until you actually hop on a plane. Then you realise just how far NZ is from the rest of the world. E.g. approx 24 hours by 747 to reach the UK. As for questions about cost of living and salaries. I'd love to have a clearer understanding of that myself. But its really hard to make an accurate comparison. Compared to the US, the government pays a higher share of the costs for things like health care. So while salaries are definitely lower in NZ, living costs are also lower. As for housing prices, have a look at: http://www.leaders.co.nz/ |
| Sun 06 Jun | Prakash S | Norman: If your goal is the experience then give Bangalore a shot - it will not be as scenic as NZ/OZ but I guarantee that it will be an interesting experience. Whichever countries are in your list - visit them all, meet people in the same profession as you are in, talk to people with similar backgrounds... Cheers... |
| Sun 06 Jun | Aussie bloke | aKiwi > I..if you're good at your job, and have marketable skills (C# and Java at the moment), then you've probably got little to fear from unemployment That's what business groups and the (conservative) government say in Australia. |
| Sun 06 Jun | John Rusk | Positive news on the NZ job market, hot off the press: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2932274a28,00.html |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | 'If your goal is the experience then give Bangalore a shot...' I'm still single, and I do plan to have a social life. I am looking primarily for life experience, not work experience. With all the arranged marriages and other cultural differences, India ain't exactly the place to be for a single guy from the West. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Bridge climber | > Positive news on the NZ job market, hot off the press It's by a recruiter, you dill. Exactly how accurate or unbiased do you think that will be? There are plenty of those reports in Australia too. Do you not understand how these people try to manipulate markets? |
| Different pricing models | Sun 06 Jun | Owlen |
| Here is another pricing question; this one is about different pricing models. I have a product that I believe can bring value to small-medium companies. Im contemplating different pricing schemes. Since its a server-based software I have three different approaches that I could think of: 1. Sell the software – I can price it per server/user etc. This is somewhat of a heads on competition with other software packages already in the space. 2. Sell a server (with the software installed). A rack-mount box with the required hardware is relatively cheap, and it will allow increasing the price significantly. I believe that its reasonable for a bundled solution. It can also be more appealing to businesses that dont have IT personnel to put the hardware themselves, install the software etc. 3. Sell a service (lease/rent?). For a monthly fee Ill provide the server (as in #2), install it, and provide any maintenance needed through the year. If you have any experience with the latter two models, I would be thankful to hear regarding relevant pricing practices you are familiar with and how they were accepted in the market. Im also thinking that with the latter two models I can (should?) open-source the software. Do you think Im correct in the following assessments: - Service model might be too odd for the market to swallow. - An open-source software, can worry a prospective client, even if we all agree it shouldnt. - Whatever I decide, I should really choose only a single pricing model, because giving a user a choice is usually a deterrent for a customer. Thanks, Owlen |
| Sun 06 Jun | Oren | Consider carefully what type of support you will need to offer, and whether you're capable of it. If you sell a server then your customers will probably expect you to handle any problems the server may have (patch management, crashes, and even hardware failures). From the tone of your post it seems that you're an individual developer, so this level of support is out of the question. Selling a service is probably your best option. Use severs hosted at a premium hosting service (such as RackSpace); this will make fixing problems and other management issues much easier than if you host the server in your own office, because RackSpace will take care of many tasks for you, day or night. Open-sourcing your software is an orthogonal question to the pricing issue, but as usual if you do so then you'll have to work harder to generate revenues. Why do you think multiple pricing models is a deterrent? On the contrary; a combination of the ASP and software-only options may be your best bet. |
| Sun 06 Jun | no name | I've worked at two ASP-model businesses so far. It's been very rewarding, getting to work with some very smart & dedicated people. The bad parts about being an ASP are: 1) Customers are always demanding you add features 'just for them'. If you agree to this, you're in trouble when it comes time to migrate to a new version. 2) Revenue is very slow at the beginning -- until you make enough sales, you'll be deep in the red. 3) Some customers are control freaks and never quite trust you to manage their data reliably, so even though they sign with you, they're always demanding full data dumps 'just in case'. 4) When things break, they usually break in a big way. As a result, you've got all your customers yelling at you, not just one or two. The good parts are: 1) One code base means terrific economy of scale (the economics of software means that the 2nd copy you sell costs you next to nothing, and is almost all profit). 2) Recurring revenue (minimum length of a contract should be 12 months) means you can weather temporary downturns. The things you must do right in order to succeed: 1) Change management. You must plan what features will be released over the next 6 months -- and deliver them on time. They don't have to be large sweeping changes -- incremental change is what you want. 2) Customer contact. You need to stay in touch with them to find out what they need from you. Otherwise you'll find it's difficult to do your change management correctly. 3) Reliability. If you go down, nasty tricksy SLA clauses kick in, making you refund part of each month's revenue. 4) Data protection. It's not your data. Better make sure your app doesn't corrupt it. Also -- make sure your backups work (does your backup tool do online databases? In-use files?) 5) Integration. The customers are going to want to integrate it with their 3rd party applications, as if it were hosted in their data center. Better make sure you can do this. 6) Automate as much as possible. Adding/dropping a customer shouldn't take more than a couple of hours, apart from loading/unloading their existing data. Best of luck! |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | The model really depends on what kind of software it is. You said it's server based, but what kinds of loads will it need to handle? What kinds of communication does it use? Will it need to integrated with the customer's existing user-management directory (ie, Active Directory or the like)? What security concerns are there if it's accessed over the open net? If you deem that your software is capable of running outside the firewall, then the ASP route is a good one, for all the reasons listed above. But only if you can handle the data-management side of things. Keep in mind that all your options except the first one (selling just the software directly to the customer) have fairly high initial costs that you'll have to front. Rack space isn't exactly cheap if you're a one-man shop, and neither are servers. If you do decide to sell servers with your software, don't force the customer to buy one. They may already have existing servers they'd like to use. Choices are good... Also, plan for the event where a customer places an order for a server/software bundle, and then backs out. Can you afford to swallow that cost, at least until you can resell it to someone else? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | One more thought on this...your pricing model can change as your new company grows. If you're a one-man shop with 0 clients and 0 funding now, it's probably best just to sell a copy of the sofware -- lowest overhead. If someone needs a server, provide your services to help them select and purchase one, but make it clear that it's their responsibility to maintain it, unless they want to pay you for that too. When you start to approach the critical mass of being unable to support the number of installations you've sold, you should be making enough profit to rent some rack space without going in the hole financially. Sign up all new customers with the new hosted solution. Do some research w/ your existing customers and see how willing they are to switch to the new business model. Encourage them to switch, but don't leave them out in the cold. If you've sold them a server just for your software, offer to buy it off them -- you'll need a couple servers for your ASP model anyway, and they won't feel like you conned them into buying something they didn't need. |
| Partnership Agreements | Sun 06 Jun | Yellow Belly |
| Myself (Australian) and another developer (American) wish to create a partnership for a business. We would like to have some sort of contact written up to define what rights we each have in regards to the business. We dont have the capital to spend on getting an attourney or whatever to go over the contract, so modifying an existing one would be good. Is this safe? Were pretty good friends, and well probably never have to reach for the contract to prove a point, its just there as a better safe than sorry thing. Does anyone know of any existing partnership agreements, or templates, that we might modify? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tom H | This is US law oriented, but has some good information. Search for 'Partnership' http://www.nolo.com |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | IMHO, you should look into forming a corporation. The big problem with partnerships is that you are each jointly and severally liable both to each other and to the purcahsers of your software. If, for example, you write a database tool that happens to wipe all the production data for a bank, the bank can sue and get your house. If you form a properly-funded corporation, then if the bank sues, it gets the corporate assets, but cannot touch your personal assets. You would have to form a C Corporation, since a US 'S' Corp cannot have non-US citizens as shareholders. My $.02 Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | By the way, the fact that you are good friends is exactly why you *should* have a contract. It's always best to keep business and friendship clearly separate, even if you happen to share both. If your friendship should happen to decay at some point, you want your business assetts to be secure. And likewise having a contract which clearly states the terms of the business arrangement will also help preserve your friendship if the business goes down the toilet. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Brad | Write up an agreement. It's not because you don't trust each other or that your intentions are in any way evil. It just spells out all of the rules, like right to purchase partners shares, what are each members rights and responsibilities, etc. My partnership/investment agreement for an LLC ran about $800 US for a very reputable attorney, and it is money well spent. If you can't afford that kind of cash, you should probably reconsider your decision to go into business together (right now). |
| Virus / Trojan Weirdness | Sun 06 Jun | Bill Rayer |
| Hi At work Im running Windows 98 behind a hardware firewall (part of an Ayava phone system). The firewall permits only FTP, SMTP, TIME, DNS, HTTP, POP3, NNTP, and only if intiated from inside the firewall. In particular, IRC and SNMP are blocked. My machine is on a mixed LAN (Win98/2000/XP) which is set up so each PC can only see a shared folder on the server, and there are no shares on any of the other PCs. In theory an infection on any PC is limited to that PC and the shared folder on the server (which runs a/v software). My PC has www.grisoft.com AVG antivirus software which updates itself every two weeks, and the last update was on Wed 2nd June. I use outlook express for email, and have enabled showing of extensions for all file types. I know not to run attachments, and to delete executable attachments (*.scr, *.pif, *.txt .pif etc etc). Yesterday AVG resident shield detected a virus while I was browsing the internet. I disconnected from the LAN and the internet, rebooted, ran the AVG scanner which removed the viruses (there were 5). Two were found in the recycle bin (these were .scr files attached to spams I had deleted earlier), one was something called pup.exe and two were .cgi files. The .cgi files were interesting. They use wsh to set the browser home page to default-homepage-network dot com and smartbotpro dot net (dont go there). And *after* cleaning off the viruses, I noticed several new files I never installed: c:\installer\id53.exe install2.exe infamous_downloader.exe 0021-bdl94126.EXE CS4P028.exe silent.exe o.bat All these (apart from id53.exe) were on the desktop. I deleted all these and checked the \windows\all users\start menu\programs\startup folder was empty (it was). Also I checked the registry startup location (HKLM\ software\ microsoft\ windows\ currentversion\ run keys and id53.exe had put itself there also. So I checked all the run keys (run, runonce, runonceex etc) and removed it from there. After this I rebooted, re-scanned with AVG, searched the registry to ensure id53 had gone and everything is OK. But I am puzzled how this virus / trojan combination installed itself. The only things I did that were different yesterday were: - Viewed a spam in Outlook express (it looked genuine and had no attachments) - Accidentally went to oogle dot com instead of google.com. - Ran a new email list program (e-campaign from lmhsoft.com) to send two emails, both to myself. How can these actions install viruses or trojans? And what can I do to stop this happening in the future? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tom H | In IE, use Tools->Internet Options->Security tab, select the Custom Level button and disable anything that looks like scripting (Java, Javascript, ActiveX, etc). Then in Outlook, Tools->Options->Security tab, select the Restricted Sites zone, and select 'Do not allow attachments to be opened or saved that could potentially be a virus' (sic) If you ever really need to save an executable file you'll have to temporarily change the settings, but remember to set them back. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Simon Lucy | If you've got AVG then enable the email filter for Outlook. I update AVG nightly. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Guy LeDouche | I don't think MS updates Win98 for security problems anymore, do they? Either way, there was an exploit in the latest IE version a couple months ago that could install code on your system even with scripting and activeX turned off. So if you haven't updated since then, that was probably the culprit. Otherwise, also realize clicking on links within HTML emails that have virus attachments usually point straight to the attachment (and thus execute it). That's how people get duped, it's not that they click on the paperclip and scroll down to 'message.scr' and decide to click it, they see http://www.freestuff.com or whatever underlined so think that's where the link goes. So make sure you have Outlook set to read messages as plain text. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Stephen Jones | What you often get are hyperliinks that in fact are pointing to an executable, since the text of the hyperlink is not the same as the underlying link. And the social engineers are getting good. One of the latest is an email form abuse@us.gov or something similar informing you that you have been placed on a US government list for surfing kiddy porn sites, and giving one of these false hyperlinks to click on. If I didn't hold the US government in total contempt, I might have been tempted to click on it. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Mike | Read the file o.bat. It ftp's down the other files. I had a user at our company get hit with the same crap. |
| Economics of Porting Software to other OSes | Sun 06 Jun | Matthias Winkelmann |
| In http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000051.html Joel argues that the costs of porting a Software to OS X have to be less than 10% of the original development costs because otherwise it would not make sense because that 10% is Apples market share. Id like to point out that this is flawed logic, because he is making connections that should not be made. For a business decision like porting software, there are really only two factors: investment and return. So if original development costs were 5 million, and costs of porting would be 1 Million (20%) and you could sell the software to 1 Million Mac Users at 2 $ each, it would be a bad decision not to do it, even though the costs of porting are 20%. This is a mistake often made. Consider the following: If you just bought a car for 20000$ and a book for 50$ and around the corner you find a show which offers the same car for 19960$ and the book for 30$ and you could return both the book and the car for a full refund, which one are you more likely to return? (Normally, you do this test with two groups. Usually, most would return the book but none would return the car). But in both cases you could have saved 20$ for the same amount of work. To get back to Joels text: It is also wrong to assume that you would get the same marketshare on OS X as on Windows. Since there is a lot less Software offered and Mac Users tend to have more money and work professionally, there is a real possibility that the market share would be significantly higher. Just some thought, enjoy your sunday. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | Yes there is an assumption to Joel's logic that the same percentage of Mac users would buy the software as the Windows version. This may be slighty flawed, but as a quick 'on the back of a napkin' calculation it's probably okay. You do know that Joel has actually ported Fogbugz to Linux and OS/X don't you. I wonder if the same percentage of users did buy Fogbugz on Mac and Linux as the original Windows port? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Leauki (Andrew J. Brehm) | I believe Joel's estimate of a 10% Mac OS market share already includes assumptions like "Mac users have more money" and "Mac users buy more software". The 10% are not the real market share but the value to work with in his calculation. Call it "effective market share" if you will. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Green Pajamas | Just consider the difference between the ratio of piracy in the Windows and Mac software PLUS the difference between the average purchase power of the Windows and Mac users. Porting software to target Linux wouldn't be as rewarding. But for Mac and Unix (the paid one) market. Yes. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Green Pajamas | Ofcourse it depends the kind of software. If Linux markets pays for it. Sure. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Emperor Norton | The original poster ignores the opportunity cost of porting to OS X. If Joel spends time and money writing a Mac version, he's not spending that time and money improving the Windows version or making new software. It's only a "bad idea" not to do the OS X port if (a) the OS X port will make money __AND__ (b) the OS X port will make MORE money than a comparable investment of time and money in another area. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Joe | To be fair, Joel's article wasn't really about the profitability of porting software. It was included as an aside to point out why REALBasic should be more VB-compliant (in order to reduce the cost of porting software to the Mac). In that context, it's not unreasonable to make an oversimplified assessment of the situation. Clearly if you're making a business decision like that, you'll have to weigh all the factors, including market share, opportunity cost, and strategy. There's no quick 'n easy formula... |
| conferences on 'The Left Coast' | Sun 06 Jun | I'm going back to Cali, Cali, Cali... |
| Anyone know of any upcoming conferences on The Left Coast? |
| Sun 06 Jun | ... | The Folsom Street Fair is a BDSM conference which will be in San Francisco on Sunday, September 26. ;-) What, that's not what you mean? Well, there are *hundreds* of developer conferences in California. Could you be more specific -- what kind of conference are you looking for? |
| Sun 06 Jun | hoser | The Freemont (North Seattle, WA) Farmer's Market is open 10-4 Sundays. Definitely lefty boho new age homoepathic mubo jumbo. Want some? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Bill Rushmore | JavaOne, if that's your thing. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Brad | Windows Embedded 2004 is in San Diego at the end of Junes, if that's your thing! http://www.windowsembeddeddevcon.com |
| Piracy can be good? | Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas |
| Do you think that software piracy can be a good marketing tactic? Just think for a moment, if Microsoft takes some serious measures to eliminate piracy from within the third world, they would all simply move to cheap alternatives. Most popular software was popularized by pirates. Plus, I went through this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_piracy But that doesnt mean piracy can be good for smaller software companies. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Mr. Analogy | Hmmm.... Option 1: India pirates Windows (as they are doing, according to a customer, from India, that I have). Microsoft makes $0.00 Option2: Microsoft prevents pirating and sells a little bit of Windows. Pirates switch to Linux. Microsoft Makes > $.00 I would think that SOME money is better than NONE. And I don't think that widespread adoption of Windows by pirates is going to reinforce the Windows monoloply as a desktop O/S. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Stephen Jones | Software piracy is a disaster for the smaller software companies. Take a look at what happens in countries where piracy is the norm among home users. You get Office for $3 so you don't buy Claris Works, or Lotus Millenium or Word Perfect Suite. You get Photoshop so why bother with Paint Shop Pro. Forget the home architect programs, off you go with Autocad to plan your kitchen extension (I've actually seen that happen). Then the best comes. Microsoft and Adobe announce that they are the most hit by piracy and that they are being robbed of tens of millions when if there was no piracy nearly all the money would go to their cheaper rivals. Back in the mid-80s I worked as a translator for a small advertising agency. The amount of money a company had to spend to send out free samples was incredible. Yet Microsoft and Adobe get all these campaigns for free, and on top of it can play the moral high ground and get their distributors branded as criminals. Microsoft wait until piracy has wiped their rivals out of the market, and then demand that the governments tighten up their act. Somebody once asked an top exec at MS if he would prefer people pirated Corel or Lotus or Apple instead of Windows. The look of horror on his face said all. |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | I understand the point of the first person. Let's say you have someone who can't afford MS Office and pirates it. This piracy perpetuates MS Office as THE preferred platform to do business on, and you know that even if you do business with a third world country, that's the file format you should use, so you buy MS Office. |
| Sat 05 Jun | T. Norman | 'I would think that SOME money is better than NONE.' Maybe, but the cost of enforcing against piracy in such countries is probably much greater than the small increase in sales that would result from that enforcement. So if they're not getting your money anyway, they'd prefer you to choose their own software to pirate rather than increasing the market share of their cheaper competitors. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Apparently piracy is one of Microsoft's most effective weapons against Linux. Lots of organisations in developing nations aren't interested in Linux simply because Windows is better and is the same price. This actually makes me wonder why open sourcers make such a fuss about developing countries. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Because its a infant battle ground. Get in good at the ground floor, and make the work easier for yourself. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Simon Lucy | There was a marketing mantra in the 80's that Visicalc became what it was because of piracy, because it was pirated it became ubiquitous. Whether this was true or not it could only have been true when the distribution of pirated products was hand to hand, largely on floppies. Once piracy reached bulletin boards, and then the Internet the means of distribution can overwhelm the publisher. This is even more true in music than in software, with CDs pulled before release because a pirate, leaked copy go onto the net before release date. |
| RDFS | Sat 05 Jun | Elmo |
| Im reading Resource Description Framework (RDF) Schema Specification 1.0 from the http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/CR-rdf-schema-20000327/ and i don´t understand one thing in graph Figure 2: Class Hierarchy for the RDF Schema is the rdfs:resource subClass of the Rdfs:Class or is the Rdfs:Class subClass of the rdfs:resource. Can someone explain this. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Da Car Guys | RDFS? RTFM!! |
| Sat 05 Jun | My Cousin Vinniwashtharam | ROFL!! |
| Sat 05 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Really? On the floor? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | I think W3C left Planet Earth quite a few years ago. Check out Joel's old article on Architecture Astronauts: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html By the way does anyone else think W3C is like Clive Sinclair? Sinclair had some big hits with his low cost home computers in the UK back in the early 80s. His machines we mostly used for games but Clive never really understood this and threw all his money into low end business machines like the Sinclair QL. I get the feeling that W3C doesn't really understand the web anymore and has gone off on the machine processing tangent. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Simon Lucy | Ummm, The C5. I'm not sure if that was an example of astrotecture (go I wish I'd coined that word), or just plain foolishness. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | Hey anyone remember the old computer game on the Spectrum "C5 Clive"? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Elmo | I can read myself that rdfs:class is a subclass of rdfs:resource, and the rdfs:resource is the type of rdfs:class but in the spets they say that RDFS:Cass cant be the subclass |
| Kiwis and Kiwi Fruits | Sat 05 Jun | Herr Herr |
| A kiwi is one of two things: 1) A kiwi is a person, who like myself, was born in New Zealand. 2) A kiwi is a flightless bird native to New Zealand, typically brown and about 30cm high. There is no fruit you can eat called Kiwi. It is Kiwi fruit! Got it? |
| Sat 05 Jun | RP | I've been using Kiwi to describe the fruit for so long it's going to be hard to change now. |
| Sat 05 Jun | matt | Yeah, and 'orange' is a colour. The thing you eat should be called an 'orange fruit'. Jeez, what difference does it make? |
| Sat 05 Jun | MediocreDev | Kiwis ARE fruits, in all meanings of the word... |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | No, you see the problem is that 'kiwi' is ambiguous - it can either refer to kiwi fruits or New Zealanders. See, one is a small, hairy fruit, and the other grows on trees... [g,d,r] Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Julian | In the US vernacular, a "kiwi" is a fruit. I hadn't heard the definition of "kiwi" as someone from New Zealand until I met a Kiwi in grad school. And she was also annoyed at people saying "kiwi" when referring to a fruit. |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | An Enzedder was counting his sheep. '195, 196, 197, Hi honey, 198, 199...' |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | Yeah! I'm one too. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Confused | So would a homosexual Kiwi also be a Kiwi Fruit? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Dennis Atkins | If you Kiwis don't like the name we in the States use for Chinese Gooseberries, you really have no one to blame but your own agricultural industry: http://www.localharvest.org/kiwis.jsp |
| Sat 05 Jun | rick chapman | Actually, the Kiwi appellation is a marketing triumph. Kiwis were originally called 'mouse apples.' To no great surprise, it was decided when creating the export strategy to come up with a more appealing moniker. rick |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rob | Let's not even bring up this UK company's marketing disaster ( http://www.mrbrainsfaggpts/com/faggot_family.htm ) when they tried to introduce their product to the American market. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rob | ...and my typing disaster, change that to an o and a dot... |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | > So would a homosexual Kiwi also be a Kiwi Fruit? No. That would be just sheep. |
| Sat 05 Jun | John C. | 'Kiwis were originally called 'mouse apples.' To no great surprise, it was decided when creating the export strategy to come up with a more appealing moniker.' Ah, yes, just as 'Patagonian toothfish' became the more savory 'Chilean sea bass'... |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | Actually, you're all wrong. It's Kiwifruit - one word. http://www.kiwifruit.org/ 'Kiwifruit (then known as 'Chinese Gooseberries' or 'Yang Tao') plants were first exported to the United States in 1904, but it wasn't until 1935 that agricultural testing of the berries began.' 'New Zealand was already exporting kiwifruit to the U.S. while Heinke and Tanimoto were planting the vines. New Zealand kiwifruit was first served at Trader Vic's in San Francisco in 1961.' 'The history of the kiwifruit began in the Chang Kiang Valley of China. Called Yang Tao, it was considered a delicacy by the great Khans who relished the fruit's brilliant flavor and emerald-green color.' CALIFORNIA KIWIFRUIT TRADE TIMELINE 1904 'Yang Tao' (a.k.a Chinese Gooseberry, a.k.a kiwifruit) are exported to the United States. 1935 Agricultural propagation of kiwifruit begins in the United States. 1960 First 'Commercial' kiwifruit vineyards (nine vines) planted in California. 1962 West Coast produce dealer Frieda Caplan begins importing kiwifruit from New Zealand. 1964 An Oregon retailer, specializing in exotic fruit, places first U.S. retail order. 1966 A Gridley, Calif., grower establishes a nursery to cultivate domestic kiwifruit seeds. 1968 Vines are transferred from the nursery and planted on an acre of land. 1970 Harvest yields 170 tray and tray equivalents of California kiwifruit. 1977 Kiwifruit Growers of California (KGC) is formed. 1980 California Kiwifruit Commission (CKC) established. 1983 International Kiwifruit Organization (IKO) is formed. Current membership: United States, New Zealand, Australia, Chile, France, Italy and Japan. 1984 The Packer rates kiwifruit 'hot produce item of the year.' (excerpts from from http://www.kiwifruit.org/history.htm ) |
| Sat 05 Jun | sgf | And this is what the Internet was created for?
Nobody has a life anymore! We have the entire history of kiwi |
| Sat 05 Jun | Clay Dowling | That's not true. I spoke to the fellow next door just today. He said he didn't have any problem with Kiwi Fruits, as long as they weren't trying to date his son. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Mr. E. Lurker | The guy next door is a kiwi fruit. You _had_ to know that was coming. |
| Sun 06 Jun | DataMiner | And if any of you folks actually had a Kiwi girlfriend or wife, then you wouldn't be on this discussion board, but you would be lying on your bed (or somewhere), wondering how you got to be so lucky and how long will it take for you to be ready again... And, before you ask, she's out of town, visiting family, and I am going out of my mind... |
| Sun 06 Jun | Herr Herr | Hey, is that my sister/niece/cousin you are talking about? |
| What shareware model works today? | Sat 05 Jun | Alex |
| Since people are hating email spam, ads, especially popup ads, not to mention spyware. The author of Getright is simply giving it away and hoping some users will pay up. What works today? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Shareware Lou | You have a free version that's time or feature limited, with obvious but not annoying reminders to register, and make it easy to pay by clicking a button or link within the software. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | Before you consider integrated solution from eSellerate (or anyother service) just make sure that you understand that changing them in the future wouldn't be easy. Once your software and their is coupled, it wouldn't be easy to just switch over. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Thanks | Basically it's like this. You work your ass off and make a good program. I'll take the time to download it and use it and not pay you. |
| Sat 05 Jun | matt | 1) Just give it away, with a polite and non-irritating reminder, which makes it easy (very easy) for people to pay. If I have to sign up for paypal I'm not bothered, for example. Bear in mind that people who are lazy, stingy or feel they can't afford to pay (eg students), will just go straight to astalavista.box.sk and search for a crack anyway, and that there's very little you can do about this, unless you want to spend more time developing machiavellian security measures than the app itself, and even then... 2) Perhaps a good idea would be to give away a decent fully functional app, but also sell a 'pro' version with lots of extra goodies. Trillian would be a good example of that approach. I think Winamp do that aswell actually? If it feels like there's anything 'crippled' about the non-pro version, though, that's likely to annoy/put people off. Things like arbitrary limits on things, nag boxes that can't be supressed etc. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | I have paid for the following shareware recently: WebDrive WinZip Textpad Beyond Compare Charles Web Debugger Citydesk Musicmatch So people (at least me) do pay for good programs. To be honest I'm probably more likely to pay for a program when it has a 30 day limit rather than a nag screen. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | > 2) Perhaps a good idea would be to give away a decent fully > functional app, but also sell a 'pro' version with lots of extra > goodies. I don't know about this? For example do you know anyone who has paid for Adaware Pro? I don't even know what is in the Pro version. Everytime I need Adaware I just hop online and download the free version, then leave the site. |
| Sun 06 Jun | George | I bought: Advanced Uninstaller Pro Diskkeeper Windows Commander |
| Sun 06 Jun | Phil | CityDesk UltraEdit PHPExpert TaskTracker and some others |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | I forgot to mention VMWare - that's some pretty expensive shareware too. |
| Google and IM | Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas |
| http://www.orkut.com is an online community that has something to do with google. Google with its email service and this online community might also look forward for the instant messaging market? With 1 GB email account, integrated community and instant messenger (and whatever). |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | ...and so on and so forth. Any reason why we should expect Google not to become another monopoly like Microsoft? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Craig | Google wont become a monopoly like Microsoft because switching from Google is a lot easier. Switching from MS is nearly impossible for most people. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Bill Rushmore | >Switching from MS is nearly impossible for most people. As someone who switches and works between several operating systems, it is getting much easier than it used to. A switch to Mac could even be done easily by the technically challenged. Linux could someday... |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | >Switching from MS is nearly impossible for most people. Means for masses. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Craig, how many search engines do you use for that really important and urgent piece of information? |
| Sat 05 Jun | JWA | '. ' - and what's your point? Are you decrying that fact that no one has figured out how to provide as good of a service as Google? That would be a fair sentiment. But no, it seems that you are complaining that they've become the best and therefore largest in their field and that this is somehow evil. So, what's your point? --Josh |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rob | Who can tell me why dogpile.com hasn't taken off? They've been around just as long as google, and provide meta-search results from google, yahoo and other search engines so by definition are 'better' than just google. Yet our site gets a total of zero search engine referrals each month from them (even though we're #1 on their list for our biggest keywords), and 90% from google? |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Josh, nothing to do with being evil. Nor anything to do with doing a good job or not. My question and point was, leveraging one's prominence in one field to expand into other related fields will lead to a monopoly. We would all be using Internet Explorer for GMailing and GIMing and maybe even Googling. That a monopoly is right, wrong, good, bad or ugly is something we'll pick up later. But first, should Google move into the IM space, will it or will it not lead to a monopoly? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | 'Monopoly' You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | JWA | Philo's right - you are not using the term monopoly correctly. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | Monopoly - 1. Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service 2. A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity. 3. A commodity or service so controlled. 4. Something that is exclusively possessed or controlled By expanding into IM, Email, Online Communities, Online Storage and so on by an Internet Search Service, that service will, excellent, honest, technically superb service, no doubt, have ' Exclusive control of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service' and will lead to 'Something that is exclusively possessed or controlled' by M/s Google Incorporated. Internet based email, search, IM, storage, news, covers IMO almost the full gamut of 'content storage, retrieval and communication' sector of the Internet. Which leaves only _content generation_ to the others. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | > content generation Google's way ahead of you. They bought Blogger last year. And the latest Google Groups in Beta allows you to create your own group. Kind of like Yahoo Groups. By the way I can't see how Microsoft or Google fit into the above definition of a Monopoly. Microsoft doesn't control Mac OS/X, Linux or FreeBSD. And Google doesn't control the internet. In both cases a new player can come along and beat them at their own game. A case inpoint is how Google came from nowhere and is now on Microsoft's radar screen. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Jorel on Software | There is more than one type of Monopoly. There are horizontal and vertical monopolies. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Bill Brown | Nope, you're not using monopoly correctly. 'Internet based email, search, IM, storage, news, covers IMO almost the full gamut of 'content storage, retrieval and communication' sector of the Internet. Which leaves only _content generation_ to the others.' A monopoly ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly ) occurs when there is no competition for production of a good or service. (I would argue that the only true monopoly is one enforced by governmental power, but that's not important right now.) In every service you mention, there are a boatload of competitors and alternatives. Internet-based email: Yahoo, Hotmail, .Mac, most ISPs offer web-based email, a quick search on SourceForge reveals many open-source web-based email clients available for download. Search: this space is so crowded that it would take awhile just to name the major players. IM: Yahoo, MSN, AOL, open-source Jabber. There's even a number of clients that integrate all of the above. Storage: lots of web-based storage out there, plus there's free storage on every computer. News: since Google News just aggregates news from other sources, there are still those other sources from which to obtain articles. Plus, all of the other major players in the portal biz offer aggregated news. Strictly speaking, Google could never become a monopoly unless all of these competitors disappeared and Google was able to erect insurmountable barriers to entry *for the Web*, which is a ludicrous hypothetical. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | That is my point. If monopoly is the term used with MS, then monopoly should be the term used with Google (once Gmail, GIM, etc gets popular enough like MS Windows). The definition that is used to deny Google the status of a monopoly is not the definition used to apply the term to MS. PS: I picked up those definitions from Dictionary.com |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | I think you're mixing up 'monopoly' with 'most popular' - they're different. Microsoft were declared a Monopoly because they forced computer makers among other things to ship Windows with Internet Explorer or not get cheap OEM prices. I don't see Google forcing anyone to do anything - hence them not being a monopoly. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | > I don't see Google forcing anyone to do anything - hence them not being a monopoly. Nor do I. And I hope not they do not in 2010. But if 'fiducary interests' are the prime and may be only motivators, then...... |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | 'Microsoft were declared a Monopoly because they forced computer makers among other things to ship Windows with Internet Explorer or not get cheap OEM prices.' Whoa. This is *completely* inaccurate. First of all, there is being a monopoly - that is having the power to fix prices or exclude competition. That is the Sherman Act definition, and it's the definition that matters. Now it so happens that the 'percentage of the market' held is generally a good indicator that a monopoly exists, but it isn't behavior that the law is created to govern. More interestingly, being a monopoly is not illegal. Abuse of monopoly power (or 'monopolization') is what the antitrust laws were written to control - that is using monopoly power to maintain or grow the company's market position. The big case was investigated 1990-1994, which investigated Microsoft's DOS licensing practices (this was the 'pay for every box shipped' license). Microsoft signed a consent decree with the Dept of Justice in 1995 which restricted licensing practices. Then in 1997 the Justice Department filed a complaint stating that MS violated the consent decree by requiring PC manufacturers bundle IE with Windows 95. This was the case that dragged out and continues to be negotiated to this day. Note that this wasn't a 'license for every box' but rather an insistence that to put a Windows 95 license on a box, they had to put IE as well. Also note that as an element of this case, the Justice Department had to show that MS was a monopoly, which they did by establishing the relevant market as 'consumer desktop operating systems' and showing that MS held over 80% of that market. This was not the main finding in the case - simply that if MS wasn't a monopoly, the case wouldn't have made it out of the starting gate; bundling isn't illegal if you're not a monopoly. The above is my personal attempt to simple walk through the factual timeline of the MS/DoJ cases. This post does not reflect any opinion or policy of Microsoft, Corp. Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | JWA | I understand your confusion. The problem is that the term is generally misused. It is not illegal to have a monopoly on something - it is illegal to use the market leverage derived from that monopoly in one market to deny other competitors access to another. So, if Microsoft had the dominant PC OS and told hardware makers that they would only sell it to them if they agreed to install Internet Explorer and NO other web browsers, that would have been illegal as unfair competition. They had an effective monopoly on the OS market before that supposed deal, but after they were commonly referred to as a monopoly with negative connotations because the laws they may have broken were the anti-monopoly laws. That's the source of the confusion. In Google's case, they have little or no consumer lock-in with which they could even try to leverage unfairly, so I'd doubt they could if they ever wanted to. The real objection to your original sentiment was not your use of the term, but your underlying implications that one company being good at a lot of things was somehow bad for us, the consumer. --Josh |
| Sun 06 Jun | JWA | 'the laws they may have broken were the anti-monopoly laws' should have said 'anti-monopolistic laws' --Josh |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | More than monopoly it is mindshare that is really excruciating. Among many other things, my team writes text books. Computer Science text books for primary and secondary schools. It is really a pain, I mean an oedipal discomfort in the fundament, to explain that Computing is not Word Processing, Word Processing is not MS Word, there is such a thing as an OS that is different from Windows, that one can browse the internet without IE and send emails without OE. And that is to the teachers and some of my team members. Statements such as 'One uses Internet Explorer to visit websites' in the theory class is wrong when teaching 'The Internet'. Practicals in the lab. Ok. Most institutions, make that all, have Windows. But it has to be ingrained early that MS is just a company (don't make me rant about how no one here appreciates or even knows the cost of MS Software, piracy be thanked) and that Windows is one OS, good, popular, effective, no doubt, but only one of the many, and that Notepad is a text editor and Word a word processor and Excel a spreadsheet (and _NOT_ a tool to format text into tables). I do not want 13 year olds to learn 'googling' as a verb in place of 'searching the web' nor 'gmail' to be common noun in place of 'email'. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | 'One uses Internet Explorer to visit websites' [shrug] If you find yourself fighting uphill to make this the proper 'one uses a web browser to visit websites' then just check with your corporate counsel - the examples you quote are trademark violations, and ones which really put the publisher at risk - check out the actions of Xerox and Coca-Cola in protecting their trademarks from becoming generic. I can't comment on whether or not it would be enforced in this case, but it should give you ammo to get where you want to go. :-) [this post is solely my opinion and does not reflect the policies of Microsoft Corp] Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | Yes. I'm scheduled to meet one of the editors of the publishing house to sort this out. Either rework the syllabi or give us editorial leeway to decide on class work vis-a-vis lab work. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | Oh! And this is not in the U. S. of A. That makes it easier in some ways and darned tough in others! |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | > Whoa. This is *completely* inaccurate. Philo I think *completely* inaccurate would be to state something like 'Microsoft were declared a Monopoly due to the price of bananas being fixed by them'. I was probably partially inaccurate - but hey, I'm not employed by Microsoft to astroturf on these forums, so I don't have all day to pour over the documents to understand the ins and outs of it. But suffice it say that IE bundling had something to do with Microsoft being labled a Monopoly. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | No, absolutely not. As in 'not one iota of legal accuracy.' Your most recent post has other problems, too. First of all, my acquaintance with the Microsoft antitrust case has nothing to do with my employment. It's mostly a result of my following the case while I was in law school, and most notably in Antitrust class. 'that IE bundling had something to do with Microsoft being labled a Monopoly.' Okay, let's try this logically: Netscape sues Microsoft for antitrust violations in bundling IE with Windows. There are several elements to the alleged behavior: - The actor must be a monopoly - The alleged behavior must be based on the monopolized market (for example, bundling Spades with MS Bob would probably not be illegal) - The alleged behavior must be an attempt to harm competition or maintain monopoly power. Those are what are called 'elements of the crime.' If all the elements are not proved, the case fails - it's thrown out of court. So for the IE bundling case to even get out of the starting gates, the absolute first step necessary is to prove that Microsoft holds a monopoly - if they don't, then Netscape and the Justice Department don't have a case. So - an initial argument in the case was to define the market as 'desktop operating systems' and show that Microsoft Windows accounted for a large percentage of that market. Judge Jackson then held that Microsoft held a monopoly in the desktop OS market, so the case could proceed. Do you understand this had NOTHING to do with IE? It was a fundamental prerequisite to the IE case moving forward. Nor was it illegal in and of itself; it was the alleged behavior of a company holding a monopoly position that was on trial. Finally, FWIW, MS doesn't pay me to be here - I do this on my own time. (in fact I'm on vacation this week) Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | ...and BTW, it's the lawyer in me that's annoyed by these legal misstatements, and the teacher in me that feels the need to straighten them out. :-) Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | Jeve Stobs | Speaking of being on MS payroll, who here thinks Joel is a paid MS evangelist of some kind? Anybody notice how any post anti-MS gets deleted? And anybody notice how any deleted post still shows up for the original poster but is deleted for everybody else? (Try surfing through a proxy after all of the responses to your anti-MS post suddenly disappear, but your post 'remains' until you go through the proxy and see that actually it's gone). |
| Sun 06 Jun | Matthew Lock | > ...and BTW, it's the lawyer in me that's annoyed by these > legal misstatements, and the teacher in me that feels > the need to straighten them out. :-) And the nerd in you that needs to nitpick tiny details when they are tangental to the discussion ;) |
| 640K Should be Enough for Anybody | Sat 05 Jun | Matthew Lock |
| Just been surfing around old posts to alt.folklore.urban Imagine my suprise when it turns out that Bil Gates never said 640K Should be Enough for Anybody: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=3110FD08.18D4%40pobox.com |
| Sat 05 Jun | Simon Lucy | He did say something about 2Mb being the desireable memory size, at a time when RAM was very expensive and he was trying to pitch OS/2. It was about the same time that he talked about a computer on every desk and a Microsoft Operating system on every computer. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Matthew Lock | More here: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,1484,00.html |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/humor.html |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | 'this column daringly offered free software into the millennium to anyone who remembers one thing Bill Gates ever said. We were taking issue with the notion advanced in the magazine that Mr. Gates is shaping this or the next century as a visionary leader, as opposed to just selling lots of software' LOL! So they consider people who *say* things more important than people who actually *do* things? Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Stephen Jones | No Philo, they just consider people who say and do things as more important than people who just sell things. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Chris Nahr | So in your world Microsoft didn't create Windows and Office, they're just "selling" them? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Tom H | How do you think Bill Gates will be remembered in the history of American business? Will he be mentioned with the likes of Cornelius Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, and Henry Ford? I think so, whether you like Microsoft or not. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rich Bastard | Actually Bill Gates did say 640K should be enough for anybody, but he was talking about employee stock options. HA HA HA HA |
| Sat 05 Jun | Mike | Yup cause some of those guys had monopolies too. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Stephen Jones | Depends what you mean by 'create'? If you are talking about a clear original idea that changed the direction of computing then, no, Gates didn't create anything. The GUI, the mouse, the Word processor, the spreadsheet, the relational database were all created by others, however good a job MS did of producing their version. Remember the original post was attacking the adulation of Gates from a 1997 interview (you know, one of these 'Bill Gates invented the Internet, PC, GUI etc' type articles). And you can't even compare Gates to Ford, because the Ford of software was Simonyi. Anyway, I'd have thought making tens of billions would surely be enough reward for what Bill has done well, without insisting on adulation as well. |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | '640K Should be Enough for Anybody' Bandwidth? Coz it's taking me forever to download the new Harry Potter movie. (I'm joking) |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | http://quote.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | 'And you can't even compare Gates to Ford, because the Ford of software was Simonyi.' You can't compare Gates to Ford, because while Ford's revolutionary ideas were adopted wholesale by business, Gates' ideas have been rejected by business. 'assembly lines mean your workers need less training, can be more closely monitored, and their work is more apparent' - good for management 'Treat your employees as people, make their worklife comfortable so they like staying at the office, encourage independence, tolerate mistakes, and kill off underproducing product lines quickly' - alien concepts management will never buy into. Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Warren Henning | Ford didn't invent the assembly line. He also wrote the book The International Jew, which was instrumental in turning millions of Germans on to anti-Semitism. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Tom H | I compare him to the other men because they all built their empires around a relatively new technology that they didn't invent, but within a couple of decades completely dominated their respective industries (steamboats, oil, steel, automobiles, and computers). |
| Sat 05 Jun | Stephen Jones | Dear Philo, If Microsoft built a car would you let your kids get in it? Dear Tom H., There is much in common between Rockefeller and Gates, particularly in the use of unfair business tactics, monopoly leverage and downright bullying though Gates hasn't resorted to murder and arson as Rockefeller did in the early 1870s. Rockefeller, like Gates also believed that the carrtels and unfair trade practices he set up were protecting both the consumer and the producer from the disastrous effects of short term swings caused by the free market. I strongly recommend 'Titan' by Ron Chernov, which is both well-written and sympathetic to Rockefeller. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Tom H | '...particularly in the use of unfair business tactics, monopoly leverage and downright bullying...' I'm not defending any of them, just comparing. In fact the term 'Robber baron' http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_075300_robberbarons.htm was coined to describe several of them. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | 'If Microsoft built a car would you let your kids get in it?' Heh. I was on a development team about five years ago - we were all cowboys. On of the VP's asked during a demo 'would you get in a plane this team wrote the software for?' Our web guy said 'absolutely' After the meeting, the PM asked him about his answer - 'hey, if we wrote the software for the plane, it would never get off the ground.' (the PM wasn't happy) Would I let my kids drive a car built by MS? If we're talking about the current environment, and no other vendors being allowed to add software, then yes. Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Motown (AU) | 'I'm not defending any of them, just comparing. In fact the term 'Robber baron' http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_075300_robberbarons.htm was coined to describe several of them.' Not quite. Goes a bit further back IIRC. Raubritter (sp??) refers to the robber barons of medievil Europe. As remembered from Darklands (Microprose). Who says computer games teach you nothing ;-) |
| Sun 06 Jun | Myron A. Semack | The '640K should be enough for anybody' quote actually came from the president of Tandy during a magazine interview. Somehow, it got attributed to Bill Gates. I guess becuse few people exven remember Tandy today. Unfortunately, people have a hard time letting reality get in the way of a good story. If you search Google for that quote, you'll notice that the year next to Gate's name is different on most of the pages. Some say 1990. Some say 1985. Some say 1981. |
| Sun 06 Jun | xyzzy | I remember a quote by Bill Gates. Reported by Robert Cringley in his famous PBS special on the history of the computer. After a Comdex show a slightly drunk Gates shouted, "I want to get laid!" |
| Using free VC++ Toolkit? | Sat 05 Jun | Rob |
| I downloaded it because it seemed cool, but it seems like the build environment is totally fed. I can build the samples that come with it... but then I downloaded the Platform SDK and couldnt build any of those samples. I have had to copy nmake and lib into directories in the path and stuff, and it still doesnt work. I did this: 1) Install VC++ Toolkit 2) Install Platform SDK 3) Run VCVARS32 batch file from VC++ 4) Run SetEnv.bat from Platform SDK 5) Run nmake But then it cant find nmake.. and the only place I found nmake was in C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDK\Bin\Win64 Win64? I thought I was doing Win32. There is no Win32 dir, just WinNT, and that doesnt contain nmake, or lib (which it also failed to find). And when I downloaded it I noticed it said Windows Server 2003... did I download the wrong thing or something? And then I tried compiling other samples and they all gave weird error messages, and some warnings too. I guess I better go grab VS.NET from work... I guess this is their way of saying buy Visual Studio...? Anyone else have these problems? |
| Sat 05 Jun | yet another anon | I was bored, so I took the 1 minute to Google 'VC++ Toolkit nmake Win64' for you. Your answer lies here: http://www.wxwindows.org/lnk_msw.htm That will be $5, please. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rob | Wow, thanks. I did google for answers, but I didn't hit upon those correct keywords. Does anyone else think it is odd that you have to do a little hacking to get everything to work together? I thought it would be easier than that... |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | Free software needs to be hacked. Isn't it the way how most of the free Linux-based software works? :p |
| Sat 05 Jun | Martin Beckett | You also of course free to use any other make. We use gnu-make under cygwin along with a script which builds the correct compiler flags so we can build our product on windows and unix using msvc, bcc32, mingw-gcc, gcc and intel icc. Doing daily builds with both MSVC and GCC is very good at finding obscure bugs. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Brad Wilson | NAnt (and presumably Ant, with some Microsoft-specific extensions) also include tasks to run the command line C++ compiler. That doesn't help you in building the SDK samples, but it's a better build environment than nmake. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Moe Hawke | >>'But then it can't find nmake.. and the only place I found nmake was in C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDK\Bin\Win64' In other words, Microsoft includes batch files which set environment variables but the batch files *DON'T* point to nmake, forcing the user to resort to various manual hacking to get things to work. So I guess the question is: Are they stupid, incompetent or just screwing with people? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Rob | Another thing that is missing is MSCVRT.lib and such. You have to download the .NET Framework SDK and then add the Visual Studio .NET 2003/Vc7/lib directory to your include path too. And that is free too of course... I applaud Microsoft for making these things available for free, they are excellent tools. But it seems as though if their goal is to get beginner's started (and therefore hook them on MS dev tools), they have fallen way short, because something like this will totally offput a beginner. So Microsoft is good at executing if they want to -- I guess that is not their goal at all. I wonder what the motivation behind this was? |
| Sun 06 Jun | g. | 'Are they stupid, incompetent or just screwing with people?' Maybe polishing up a command-line version of their compiler that people can download for free isn't their top priority. I'm going to take a wild-ass guess here and say that the people using a free VC++ download aren't the heavy-hitters on that platform. If you can't afford $100 or so for a commercial compiler, you're probably pretty small beans, and don't care too much about Windows development. Or at least the kind of Windows development that brings a lot of people with a lot of $$$ to Windows. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Rob | Then why release it at all? I thought the point was that they wanted to get beginners hooked. It's besides the point that beginner's aren't big time Windows developers. It is so that they might be later. This is analogous to Apple giving away lots of free computers to schools. They wanted kids to grow up on Apple and buy Apple as adults. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Tom | It could persuade more few free projects to compile on VS.NET, I suppose, by adding VC++ to the list of compilers you can legally get for free. And as it's alleged to be so standards-compliant, maybe it will displace comeau c++'s web front end as the compiler of choice for testing out the further frontiers of c++ templatism. This won't make them any money, I'm sure, but I doubt it will lose them much, and may just increase their standing slightly in a hearts'n'minds sort of way. |
| Men are from foo, women are from bar | Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy |
| HER DIARY Sunday night I thought he was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a bar to have a drink. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment. Conversation wasnt flowing so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk, he agreed but he kept quiet and absent. I asked him what was wrong - he said, Nothing. I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said it had nothing to do with me and not to worry. On the way home I told him that I loved him, he simply smiled and kept driving. I cant explain his behavior; I dont know why he didnt say, I love you, too. When we got home I felt as if I had lost him, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there and watched T.V.; he seemed distant and absent. Finally I decided to go to bed. About 10 minutes later he got up and went to sleep on the sofa. I still felt that he was distracted and his thoughts were somewhere else. I decided that I could not take it anymore, so I decided to confront him with the situation but he had fallen asleep. I started crying and cried until I too fell asleep. I dont know what to do. Im almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster. HIS DIARY Today, We lost the cricket match. |
| Fri 04 Jun | A Dingo Ate My Baby | Oh, it's weekend already... Dang how time flies. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Let me clarify two things: (1) I was reading in between there were some stupid posts around the weekend, and I didn't make those. Honest! Mother swear. I read some of the guys were saying, 'its weekend'. I wouldn't just post gobbledegook. (2) A more important clarification. If you're going to ask what this has to do with software, then let me tell you it's a highly relevant thread. It's got Foo and Bar. :-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Lou D'Acriss | This website will cheer you up: http://www.wingmusic.co.nz/listen.html |
| Fri 04 Jun | Asok | Ooh, male/female stereotypes. That's a refreshing change from programmer/manager stereotypes, or the very tired programmers-have-no-people-skills one. Maybe I should do some ethnic ones... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Da Car Guys | Women are from Chrysler, Men are from GM. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | I'm still laughing from the Phantom of the Opera. |
| Sat 05 Jun | tapiwa | Africans are from Africa, and Indians are from India. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Alex | Is this chick for real? I fell off my chair listening to "Castle on a Cloud" (kassal on a klau). |
| Sat 05 Jun | T. Norman | Except the Indians who are from America. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Alex | Get a load of 'Dream Lover'! Man this is ROTFL to the highest degree... |
| Sat 05 Jun | T. Norman | William Hung has competition. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Dennis Atkins | Sathyaish Chakravarthy, That is a hilarious story and so true. Did you find that somewhere and are repposting it or did you write it yourself? |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | In the book store last night, I found a book filled with "Dear John" breakup letters. I don't remember the name, but know exactly where to find it in the 65th Street & Broadway Barnes & Noble. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Jorel on Software | Does this mean you're planning on breaking up with your boyfriend MarkTAW? Don't send him a letter you found in a book. Do it in person. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | No, Dennis. I didn't write it myself. I got it in my email from an old friend. |
| Slacker Coworker | Fri 04 Jun | Sassy |
| Ive got a coworker (sysadmin, in my department) who is absolutely useless. ADD, multi-hour personal phone calls, wretched hygene, hour-long conversations with anyone close enough to hear. Not to mention marginal technical competence and a complete inability to finish anything, ever. Even though our boss says hes dealing with it, he isnt, so Ive begin to gently call the slacker out (usually just a hint through IM) Yesterday there was something he needed to do and it peripherally touched on my responsibilites. Our manager is away, so I gently attempted to follow-up with the slacker and make sure things got handled. Of course, they didnt, he dropped the ball, and when I mentioned it to him I was met with the usual defensive comments: Chill out dude Youre not my boss Is it wrong for me to view this persons employment as an affront to everything Ive worked for? Is it wrong for me to view my manager as a pathetically weak yes-man to him not correcting the situation? Is it wrong to think that there must be some tragic, hidden flaw in a company who would continue to employ such an absolute idiot? |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Can you get your co-worker to give us his side of the story too please? |
| Fri 04 Jun | ian | As your working life progresses, you will realise more and more that all companies are in some way messed up, have managers that make inexplicable decisions, and are basically like life imitating Dilbert cartoons. You have to chill out and accept this as a fact of life. Even if you were to start your own company, your good intentions to do things differently would be likely, sooner or later, to fall victim to reality. You need to ignore the failings of your coworker and concentrate on doing your job right. Take pride in what you do, and try to make sure that your good efforts are noticed. Don't try to call your coworker to account, and definitely don't whinge or gripe to others behind his back, especially to your boss. If you are not his manager you are not responsible for his job performance. Sooner or later, if your coworker is as bad as you say he is, he will get found out without your help. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alyosha` | Ask yourself -- how would I handle this in the most professional manner? Because it seems to me you're just building resentments. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | Unless your co-worker is directly preventing you from getting your job done, I'd agree that he isn't really your problem and you'd do best to ignore the situation. If he is actually stopping your progress on something, then talk to your boss, explain the situation, and wait for him/her to fix it. Ahhh the beauty...Dilbert imitates life, imitates Dilbert, imitates life, so on and so forth...it's a perfect self-renewing cycle :) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Tired of someone all up my jock | I've got this coworker that is always on my ass. For some reason they think they are my boss and they spend an inordinate amount of time watching me, 'spying' on me, IM'ing people about me, chatting about me, and I wouldn't doubt .. writing about me on message boards! Jeez, they think I'm a slacker, but meanwhile, they spend time prying into my responsibilities!!! Anyhow, the other day I was multi-tasking between many different tasks, one being theirs. As everyone here knows, when faced with many different tasks, you have to assign priorities. Unfortunately, their task wasn't at the top of the queue. Which led to this scenario: I'm in the middle of busting my ass for someone and they walk right up to me and start hassling me about why they didn't get their 'all important' task done. Jimminy crickets, I was in the middle of some really crazy important stuff, and they think they can walk right up and have me drop everything because they are inconvenienced. I think they thought that they tried to approach me gently, but you can sense the distain in their voice. You could telll that because the 'boss was away', they were going to try and 'handle things' the way they thought things should be happen. Which, of course, was: 'Me first before anyone else'. You know, when a boss is clueless about what you do, they think you should always be at their beck and call. So, I snap back: 'Chill out dude' 'You're not my boss'. I really wish this person would get off my ass. Because really, when you don't know everything about my day, schedule, or responsibilites ... you look foolish otherwise. What can I do? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | I only want to hear about solutions involving flash powder, salamanders, and/or kiwi fruit. Everything else we've covered already. Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | Jimmy | Sounds like you've done your part - notifiying your boss about the situation. The real question is if you think your boss won't/can't take action, should _you_ stay? I'm currently leaving a similiar situation after 4 years. Either way it's destructive to waste time fretting over others shortcomings in the workplace. Find something better. |
| Fri 04 Jun | son of parnas | You brought it up. Now leave it. Just never ever make up for any of his mistakes. Let him fall flat on his face. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | I'm a manager with a staff problem. One guy gets things done but doesn't care if he pisses other people off. If he's talking on the phone with someone, he will continue it even if a co-worker demands his immediate attention. Then I've got this other guy who's a real stickler for the rule book. Likes everything signed off in triplicate. Thinks anyone who doesn't use [name favorite male toiletry] is slack with personal hygiene. Lately the second guy has started hassling me about the first. It's not really the second guy's role. He's overstepping his responsibilities. What should I do? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kyralessa | As I pointed out to my wife a while back, either the boss doesn't care your co-worker is a slacker, in which case you're not going to make the boss care by complaining about it, or the boss does care, in which case your complaining is unnecessary. The third choice, of course, is that the boss is so clueless as to not know that your co-worker is a slacker, in which case when you complain the boss will either not believe you, or will be embarrassed that you've pointed out his/her cluelessness. 'A strange game. The only way to win...' |
| Sat 05 Jun | Bah humbug | Philo, it's not 'kiw fruit' any more: they're marketed as Zespri now. |
| Sat 05 Jun | slackerssuck | Guess what ... seems like we got the slackers here. I was gonna post the same thing. I've worked primarily in very small shops so I never had to gripe too much. Of course I left one job just for this very reason. Company grew and we hired more people one of whom was going to be my project manager. I told the owners this person was stupid and they should fire them. They gave me a raise instead. Bread is not enough, I quit. Now am at a fortune 500 and just getting tired of cohorts doing whatever crap the analysts say. Honest to goodness but when *someone* decided to classify people differently they did not add a new column to the table ... they duped the table and called it new_X. I had to discover this in a very convoluted way. The analysts, honest to goodness, told me that I should talk to another developer who knew little to nothing about what I do and this person would tell me what I needed to know and there was no way for me to verify what I was doing ... nope ... when I thought I was done they would test and return if it didn't work as they thought it might. No one knew how to test it. No change request. I blew a gasket and became persona non grata. My cohorts just blindly eat this shit. The other day I got a request to add some files to my import tool ... but I was supposed to save them on one computer and import them into a db on another ... odd ... and then I was told to combine those 4 tables into one table so I had to take a closer look. It was incredible. None of this had to be done other than the transfer of files but my boss ordered it and another cohort just lolly dolly went along with it. I lodged a *stupid* complaint. Seems I'm lodging a lot more of them lately. Personally I think you ought to leave as working with people you don't respect is something you ought to do ... I try and go into dumb mode and it don't matter but then I get on here and rant. It seems that people responding to this are just the morons who get in the way or worse who build towers of babel ... I read that it is very dangerous to hire someone at a distinctive level beneath your other knowledge workers as that person will drive out the good ... I had a bookstore and if you traded 2 for 1 you'd end up with lots of books but nothing worth reading. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Simon Lucy | Did you breathe whilst you typed all that? |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | Hey slackersuck, I'm an analyst. Jump three feet. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | Why 'Zespri'? Did someone think 'kiwi' was an ethnic slur? Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Herr Herr | To Philo, Glad to hear you say 'Kiwi fruit' and not simply 'Kiwi' as they do in Europe. To the rest of the universe, A 'kiwi' is one of two things: 1) A kiwi is a person, who like myself, was born in New Zealand. 2) A kiwi is a flightless bird native to New Zealand, typically brown and about 30cm high. There is no fruit you can eat called 'Kiwi'. It is 'Kiwi fruit'! Got it? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Mercedes SLK | IF it's flightless how come it's a bird? And those damn penguins. When did they stop flying? Oh, and don't get me started on the chickens... |
| Sat 05 Jun | Philo | 'Glad to hear you say 'Kiwi fruit' and not simply 'Kiwi' as they do in Europe.' Well of course. If I wanted to refer to New Zealanders I'd say 'those irritating holier-than-thou assclowns that can never get over their perceived inadequacies as compared with Australia' [grinning, ducking, running] Philo |
| Sat 05 Jun | Bored Bystander | Sassy, you should drop it. As stated by others, all workplaces are grossly inefficient. If a slacker is the worst you have to deal with, then fuggedaboutit and do your work. Accusing a peer of not contributing ranks along with theft and espionage against your employer as one of the most damaging things you can do to your own reputation with your employer. It never, ever, ever looks good or looks like you were proactive. If it pisses you off, you better look for a new job. This is completely beside the point that we don't know what the slacker does and we only heard your point of view. |
| Sat 05 Jun | a nut-fungus has greatly improved my hygiene | I think maybe the solution is for you to stop being such an uptight ass-wad. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Based on this last guys comments, he must be the *real* co-worker in question... |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Philo, never a truer word was spoken. A better way to rile a Kiwi would be to ask them who knocked them out of the Rugby World Cup. If they start spluttering, for some spice you could say something like, 'Spencer flings it wide... MORTLOCK! He's away!'. And the flame war begins. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Simon Lucy | Calling Kiwis, fruits, would I think involve being knocked over by said fruity fist. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Bill Rayer | 'IF it's flightless how come it's a bird? And those damn penguins. When did they stop flying? ' The kiwi has little wings too weak to fly with. Birds in NZ evolved to become flightless because there was nothing there to eat them. There used to be giant 12 foot high flightless birds that became extinct when humans reached New Zealand. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Bill Rayer | Moa reference: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/birds/printouts/Moa.shtml |
| Sun 06 Jun | anon | Oh, unless your clueless boss decides to have a peer review session with you saying: 'You and you are in the same team. Why didn't xyz and abc get done at qwe time? Now, let's look at team work. You and you can't get along? Gees, man why do you guys give me so much problems?' And when that happens, you will feel like grabbing a bunch of your boss's hair and turn it into one of those new fangled pointy hair-dos. Solution - leave it. S/he will screw up some time. You don't have to do anything for the mouse to show its tail. |
| Have you heard of the Cobra Group? | Fri 04 Jun | A regular poster to this forum |
| (1) Have any of you people here had the chance of dealing with this company on any terms, as an employee or a client? The company it seems is called the Cobra Group and theyve a website at http://www.cobragroup.com. I ask because my sister applied to them 2 months ago when they said they were opening shop in Delhi, India. They took about two months and nothing started yet. My sisterd keep calling them to check for developments. Then three days, I called them to see if theyd started operations. They had just started two days back they said. They said they were an Australian concern. What business? They just told me to go to the website to check out what theyre into. Somehow I dont quite see myself getting convinced if theyre really okay. Beside, they offered her a very paltry amount dismissing her prior call-center experience of 3 years. She hadnt been employed for over 6 months now so she said yes. I am not very happy about it. The name itself is so wierd. Do anyone of you here know anything about these people? Are they ok to work for? (2) http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=115365 The GE folks, Id told them Id write to the press about thier delinquince. That scared the shit out of them and they said we could keep the 1 month salary that we got by mistake. They said theyd realized it was an error from their side. To cover up what theyd said (that theyd paid us 3 months salary or something of that sort), they said theyd actually written the salary cheques but not dispatched them to our address, and the cheques were lying in the mail-room, and that had caused them to think we had recieved pay for the 3 months. Everything was ok for sometime. Just four days back, they started calling my sister again saying she had to return half of the one month salary plus some PF that theyd credited to her account. Now, I have no clue nor does my sister, about what PF theyre talking about. And why must we run around the PF offices and fill forms and pay them for something that wasnt our fault? What do I do? |
| Fri 04 Jun | x | Dude...how hard is it to check their website? While their 'Human Commercials' stuff sounds a bit eerie, they list companies such as 'American Express, Austar, Citibank, MBNA, Pizza Hut, Sheraton Hotels, Tele2, Telecom New Zealand, NPower and The Carphone Warehouse' as their clients. They hardly look like a fly by night company, but they do look like another cheesy marketing firm that likes to speak in double-talk. |
| Fri 04 Jun | A regular poster to this forum | Websites are marketing brouchers. My company has all the razmatazz on their slick-looing website because we have so many flash designers who are on similar jobs day in and day out. All of that marketing blitzkrieg could lead anyone who's not been here to believe that they actually mean whatever they say. That's another story that they didn't write all of the stuff on the website themselves. What led me to doubt was their office took so many days, its not all that great and they are paying so low. Its less than a quarter of the normal rate in the industry for a 3 year old experienced call-center professional. And it seems like a sweatshop. I thought if someone who'd dealt with them would tell me more. |
| Fri 04 Jun | MilesArcher | Is that GI Joe's enemy? |
| Fri 04 Jun | MSHack | I would not trust the website. If I list all the clients I have had over 15 years, I would be able to claim a third of their list. While that may make me sound impressive, it should not. WebSites are the unregulated world of hucksterism. |
| Fri 04 Jun | A regular poster on this forum | >Is that GI Joe's enemy? LOL! Looks like to me. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Robert Jacobson | The website isn't too impressive. Slick but devoid of content. I particularly like the 'About this company' page, which has a grammatical error in the first paragraph and dead links where the company lists projects for its clients. On the other hand, a Google search turns up more information. Seems like a real company at least: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+Cobra+Group%22+marketing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8 |
| Fri 04 Jun | A regular poster to this forum | Thank you, guys, for reading this post and spending whatever of your precious little time on my issue. If any poster has interacted with them, kindly let me know how these people are. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | It's a direct marketing group. As well as being paid shit you can expect your sister to regularly get insulted over the phone by people justifiiably annoyed at receiving unsolicited calls. Marry her off, instead. |
| Fri 04 Jun | A regular poster to this forum | My good lord, how did you know that my sister is of marriagable age? It is in preparation of getting her married that we are trying to get her into a job, because it matters in India. If the girl is working, she has chances of getting a better groom. Stephen, I hope you recieved my previous mail through this board. I have thought a fair share of thoughts about trying to learn from your posts, with the immense wisdom they ooze. How does one learn: (1) Good english, (2) International politics I want to learn a lot of things in my life. I greatly admire the way you write about whatever the topic. I mean I hope you understand. Regards, Sathyaish Chakravarthy |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Fuck! I thought I was writing a private message to Stephen Jones. No use hiding now. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bored Bystander | LOL! I'm sure Stephen will be kind. ;-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Hell! I thought Stephen would also be in kind! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Robert Jacobson | LOL++! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Head down against the desk, hands covering my head. :-( |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Lets spoil it further, Estudiantin. It happens to the best of us. Look, it has happened to you! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Gee....[grin] |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr. Fancypants | I don't know anything about the Cobra Group... which is too bad, because knowing is half the battle. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | And what would you be trying to say, Mr.Fancypants? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bridge climber | Sathyaish, the Cobra Group seems to be one of those operations that aims to make money from charity fund raising (can you donate to the Heart Foundation, such and such Hospital, etc?) The name is similar to a group that made its money in car alarms, based originally in Sydney's western suburbs (i.e. dodgy dealings.) Their office is in an area that used to have lots of cheap rag-trade operations. Summary - a bunch of people on the make. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Daniel-San | Cobra Kai? Yeah, they were bad-ass. You know what they study there? THE WAY OF THE FIST SIR. And you know what is that way? STRIKE FIRST. STRIKE HARD. NO MERCY SIR. One thing you got to look out for is that they 'Sweep the leg'. But, I heard that the crane technique works well. Oh, wait, Cobra 'Group'! Never mind! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | That was precisely what my sis was telling me on the phone today. Something about charity and NGOs. But I was never acquitted of having qualms of distress thinking of this phony cartel. Thanks for the summary, Bridge Climber. I think I know what to do now. And how must I deal with the GE troops now? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Daniel-San, what are you getting so mad at? Could you please help me understand what you wanted to say with that post you made? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bored Bystander | It appears to be a reference to 'The Karate Kid' movie: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Cobra+Kai&btnG=Google+Search |
| Fri 04 Jun | Zealot | my brother used to work for them in london - they do marketing (value cards for restaurants and so on). as nice as any direct marketing company. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | I did get the reference to the martial art, but I still do not know what was his intent? What was he trying to say? Was that just a joke? What was it about the 'sweep of the leg' and the way of the fist? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | ---'thoughts about trying to learn from your posts, with the immense wisdom they ooze. How does one learn: (1) Good english,'---- One little tip about good English. We don't normally associate oozing with wisdom- ooze pus is more likely. One consolation though. 100% of readers of the forum will think you got the phrase half-right! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | I was aware of that. Ooze wasn't quite befitting, but I compromised with it because I thought a more apt one such as 'exude' might be a bit too verbose. The question is, how does one better himself? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Daniel-San | This has to be one of the funniest responses to my obvious lame attempt at humor: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did get the reference to the martial art, but I still do not know what was his intent? What was he trying to say? Was that just a joke? What was it about the 'sweep of the leg' and the way of the fist? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dude! You've got to sit down and watch 'The Karate Kid'. One of the classic movies of the 80's. Firstly, Ralph Macchio played the lead character whose name was: Daniel LaRusso. Daniel, after running into trouble with some of the members of the 'Cobra Kai' (martial arts dojo), started learning karate under Mr. Kesuke Miyagi. Miyagi would call Daniel, 'Daniel-San'. Hence, the name I used. Secondly, 'Cobra Kai', when showing a scene inside the dojo, chanted those very things that I typed out. These things are now material used for retro 80's t-shirts. Thirdly, In the Karate tournament at the end, the Cobra Kai guys - whom Daniel had to fight - were playing dirty. Daniel got injured, during one of the fights, but still came out for the championship 'battle'. The injury was to his leg. The final battle was amongst the most evil of the Cobra Kai students. The 'master' of that dojo said to his pupil, 'sweep the leg'. You know, because that would be a dirty thing to do (Daniel being injured and all). Daniel eventually won the battle by using the 'crane technique'. Something that he saw Miyagi doing on the beach one day during their training. In other words: lighten up. It was a joke. I saw Cobra, in Cobra Group, and I immediately thought: Cobra Kai! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr. Fancypants | If all Indians are as stuffy as you, I guess we have nothing to fear from outsourcing. Get a sense of humor! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Stuffy? Not at all. I am seriously working on bettering my English and comprehension skills. This is precisely what I mean when I say I have to work on my language skills. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bill Rushmore | This is one of the funniest threads I have seen. All the GI Joe references were good but the best was the 'A regular poster to this forum' was revealed as Sathyaish, the Norm* of JOS! Then add in some Karate Kid, magnifique! * Reference to old American TV show 'Cheers' character |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bridge climber | Sathyaish, regarding the GE folks, is there some Indian government agency who can advise you on how Indian employment law applies in this situation? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Frazier Crane | Sounds more like Clif Clavin to me! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Daniel-San | >>>>> This is precisely what I mean when I say I have to work on my language skills >>>>> Don't be too hard on yourself. This has nothing to do with your language skills. These are cultural references. Pretty much anyone in my age group (25-35?) has seen the Karate Kid. Therefore, when I start whipping out references to 'Cobra Kai', 'Daniel-San', 'sweep the leg', 'crane technique' .. most ... will chuckle. Because it makes you think of that movie (I say most, because some will treat my humor as juvenile). But, IMO, having cultural similarites is beneficial to communication. Which makes that one of the negatives for offshore development. But, that's a topic for another day. It's Friday, and I'm 'audi 4000' <- Again, another reference you will not understand. I'm just saying bye. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr. Miagi | Daniel-san Wax on, Wax off! Paint the fence! |
| Fri 04 Jun | An irregular poster to this forum | Just don't tell Vera. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Would you guys like to tell me what's going on here? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Jorel on Software | I'm just bitter someone beat me to the Cobra-Kai joke. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Simon Lucy | Nothing is going on here, everyone back to your Dilbert references please. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | What is Dilbert and why should one reference it? Is it some new pointer thing that I must learn to be a _master C coder_? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Jorel on Software | Do you think Dilbert could leg sweep his PHB? |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Nah! An straight drive past long off maybe. PHB are always off, not on. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | I know what Dilbert is okay. And you guys making fun of me or what? And you dot space guy, making fun of me? |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | I'm just making a very feeble attempt to get your goat! |
| The thing I hate most about windows: End Now | Fri 04 Jun | |
| Why do I have to hit End Now several times in some instances? Ive got a few apps that repeatedly misbehave, and it takes several minutes and several clicks on the End Now button before they ever go away. kill -9 in linux gets rid of the offender instantly. Is there anything like that for windows? |
| Fri 04 Jun | GiorgioG | win2k3's kill is "taskkill" not sure if xp has it... |
| Fri 04 Jun | a cynic writes... | Funny - I quite like it. But then it usually behaves for me. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | I tend to use 'Kill Process Tree' from Task Manager (right click on the misbehaving process in the Processes Tab). I believe End Task simply sends a request to the application to exit gracefully (which obviously won't help much if the app isn't responding in the first place) and then waits for some timeout period before cutting off its life support. Kill Process Tree just ends the process immediately, along with anything it spawned. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Greg Hurlman | Clicking 'End Task' turns around and dumps some portion of that process's memory to file, to prepare for the following 'Do you want to send this crash to MS' dialog box. If you click 'End Task' and it doesn't end fast enough, look for a process called dumpprep.exe. Kill that, and the original offending process should die off. I'm unaware of any way to disable this funcitonality, though I suspect that a registry key is involved - I'm too lazy right now to go hunting. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | My favourite thing in Windows is when you tell it to shut down, and then return the next morning and it has a dialog informing you that an app isn't elegantly closing (it can be something as trivial as a notepad instance that wants to know if you want to save changes) and it'd like to know if it can kill it. This is especially funny on laptops. |
| Fri 04 Jun | matt | No, the worst thing about windows is that you fucking /need/ to press 'end now' once every 5 mive minutes. There's a service you can disable that stops that irritating 'report this bug to microsoft' thing. And yeah killing the process from the process list tends to actually kill it rather than ask it nicely to fuck off and die |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | The reason for this 'three click' problem is so that the process can save any unused data to disk and exit gracefully if necessary. Also it allows the program to dump data. Just killing thr process from Task Manager (the processes tab, not the applications tab) will work immediately. And yep, you should wait for Windows to shut down if you want to be sure it won't be still displaying the dialog box the next morning. But it is useful to know that you forgot to save the doc you had been working on all morning. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | 'And yep, you should wait for Windows to shut down if you want to be sure it won't be still displaying the dialog box the next morning.' I'm notorious for the 'just one more second!' trick with my wife, so when it's time to leave the PC it is definitely time to leave the PC. In any case, how much of a programming challenge is it to make the core troublemaking apps (such as notepad) just save to a scratch location and then reopen it on bootup? Word actually does this quite elegantly (I mean in the event of a crash). At the very least hibernate the PC if for some reason a shut-down can't be accommodated in a timely manner (i.e. a minute). |
| Fri 04 Jun | snotnose | What I love is you shut your machine off and go home, only to come home in the morning to 'This program is not responding, end now?'. Um, well, not anymore. I'd like to abort the bloody shutdown and get to work. But that's not an option. Guess what Microsoft? If I do a shutdown, and some task doesn't want to close, and I haven't noticed for, oh, 8 hours, then it's probably pretty farkin safe to just shut the damned thing down. I know XP does this because it's run my laptop battery down doing this. Asshats. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mike Treit | shutdown -r -f -t 0 |
| Fri 04 Jun | WildTiger | XP has "taskkill" also. You'd better know admin password if you want to kill something like winlogon, not sure if you need any priveledges on Linux for kill -9 for similar operation. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mike Treit | As a side note, killing winlogon is probably not a good example since doing so will cause an automatic STOP error (i.e., a blue screen of death) Try it for fun :) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Brian | How can this thread have gotten so far without anyone mentioning my favorite dialog: "Please exit all Microsoft Office applications before shutting down"? (sorry if that's not verbatim). Um, why do I have to close the application manually? Can you imagine if everyone did that? |
| Fri 04 Jun | A Dingo Ate My Baby | Disable Error Reporting: Control Panel->System->Advanced->Error Reporting. Disable. |
| Fri 04 Jun | MilesArcher | I've always wondered what the significance of the -9 is in the kill command was. I haven't used Unix since VAXes were cutting edge, so forgive my ignorance of Linux. Do you still have to type the PID to kill off a process, or is there now a decent UI where you can just click on it? I think Cygwin has a kill util for windows. You might try that |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bobby Z | I always report the errors to Microsoft because I like to help clog their server with results of their crappy services and IE crashes. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Somorone | There should be a dialog like this when shutting down: --------------------------- Your Application --------------------------- You have open application(s) that need their data to be saved. Do you want to disregard the changes and close Windows anyway and loose all data? --------------------------- Yes No Cancel --------------------------- If the user awnser yes then close windows without any other dialog. Just a mention in the log if the person wants to sue anyone due to the lose of data. (If he is stupid enough to ignore this warning he will be stupid enough to erase his logs) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | 'I always report the errors to Microsoft because I like to help clog their server with results of their crappy services and IE crashes. ' FYI, the product groups review all the responses - they've found in the past that small fixes cleared large percentages of crashes. So for everyone who's sent crash reports in - you're helping yourselves. Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | Gnome Geek -- (this ain't your father's unix) | 'I've always wondered what the significance of the -9 is in the kill command was.' It sends signal 9, i.e., SIGKILL, to the process. 'I haven't used Unix since VAXes were cutting edge, so forgive my ignorance of Linux. Do you still have to type the PID to kill off a process, or is there now a decent UI where you can just click on it?' Google for 'gnome system monitor'. (It looks remarkably similar to what NT has.) Also, if you're using a recent version of Gnome, and you click the close-box of a window whose process isn't responding, it'll pop up a window giving you the option to kill it right there. If you're at the command-line, you can also use 'killall' to kill a process by name instead of number. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bobby Z | 'There should be a dialog like this when shutting down: --------------------------- Your Application --------------------------- You have open application(s) that need their data to be saved.' Or how about all applications just process the WM_ENDSESSION message and save whatever they have to a temp file? Forget about the stupid dialogs. If the user wants to power down, they should be able to power down. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | Why not have a journalled filesystem and just flick the switch off? |
| Sat 05 Jun | J | I think they prefer us to hibernate our PC. That's why turning it off is so difficult. They do this because they now that XP is very reliable and rebooting it is no longer needed to clear things up. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | NTFS is journalled |
| Sat 05 Jun | emacsdude | >> FYI, the product groups review all the responses - they've found in the past that small fixes cleared large percentages of crashes. So for everyone who's sent crash reports in - you're helping yourselves. Of course they do. It's free QA testing for them. Your bug report will generate a fix with may get incorporated into either a patch or a new product release which you'll have to pay for. I never send in reports to Microsoft. Let them pay for their own QA. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Stephen Jones | ---'They do this because they now that XP is very reliable and rebooting it is no longer needed to clear things up. '------- Troll of the year! I'll feed you. Two days on my work computer and I have to reboot. The programs you open and the web sites you visit stay in memory and much sooner than you think you are slowing to a crawl. Now 2 days with 256Mb of RAM would mean longer with 4GB of RAM, but on the other hand I'm only running all MS business software, IE< Outlook, Word, Access and IE apart from the occasional use of the Oracle database and Norton AV running in the background. My home 2K machine would be good for a lot more uptime, but the noise from the fans means it gets turned off after every session. |
| Microsoft Granted Patent for double-clicking | Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Atkins |
| Triple clicking too - its a broad patent. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,727,830.WKU.&OS=PN/6,727,830&RS=PN/6,727,830 Fun! |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | Another example of the absurdity of the patent process as it is currently managed in the U.S. Why does the fact that it's a 'limited-resource computing device' have any bearing on the substance of the claim? (Philo, as a member of the bar *and* a Microsoftie, please help us out here!) It seems analogous to noticing that wheels on cars are really useful, and then patenting wheels when used on toy cars. More importantly, isn't there prior art for the specific claim here? iPods implement precisely the kind of functionality they seem to be describing, and certainly predate the filing. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Atkins | And here's a link to the announcement a few months ago that MS would be licensing the FAT file system, which it protects with several patents: http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp Licensing of FAT is 25 ¢ per-unit, even per floppy disk. Licensing of double click wil be similar - you'll pay a small fee for each place in your program where multiple click means something, or where a time held click means something, like when you acre dragging the mouse or such. So if you have 100 things that double click or drag or wait a moment before popping up in your application, that might be a $25 fee for each copy of the program sold. In any case, those of you who are of the opinion that MS is washed up and should divide into multiple companies because they have no future revenue source are sadly mistaken -- MS OWNZ you. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Atkins | 'Limited resource' is an intentional red herring thrown in to confuse detractors. You say the patent is unfair - MS says don't worry, it applies only to handheld devices. THe patent mentions handheld devices, yes. But it also says that the patent is NOT LIMITED to those devices, that they are only mentioned as an example of a posible embodiment. Telling is that 'limited resource' is not defined in the document and is not a standard term. Obviously, all computers are limited resource - embedded systems to supercomputers have limited memory, limited CPU speed, limited drive storage, and so forth. This is a patent on ALL software everywhere - that which exists and that which has not been written. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Guy LeDouche | I like how lawyers can stretch four lines of "if" statement code into an 80-page patent description, with flow charts and illustrations. |
| Fri 04 Jun | hoser | The only patent still in force related to FAT is long file name to short file name translation/compatability. Avoid short file names and all the other FAT patents are expired. As to the double-click absurdity. some large company with a stake in handhelds (like Nokia or Sharp) will have to challenge that. It may be that most handheld manufacturers don't even care (who double-clicks on handhelds?). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Robert Jacobson | Regarding 'limited resource computing device...' The scope of the patent is actually defined only by the language of the claims (number 1 through 27 here.) The rest of the patent is basically superfluous -- it just helps explain the terms in the claims and the background of the patent. Each of the claims is limited to a 'limited resource computing device.' (Some of the claims incorporate that language by reference.) The patent's fairly clear that that term means a handheld computer or equivalent (like a PDA phone.) Consequently, this patent couldn't apply to a desktop or regular notebook PC. However, it is does seem like a suprising basis for a patent. If there is any prior art, like the iPod or another handheld device, then the patent wouldn't hold up in court. |
| Fri 04 Jun | MSHack | Here is the problem though, it does not have to hold up in court. What company, other than a major play like Sony or Apple, could stand to be in court with MS. I imagine anyone MS went after would either go under or license. Just to avoid court. This process is terribly broken. (Did you notice the reference to the 1985 Patent on typing with one hand?) The problem is no one will fix it because big money pays for it to be broken. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | I haven't bothered to look at the patent but it strikes me that Xerox hold prior art for the clicking of a switch changing or indicating choice on a computing device, regardless of the number of times it was clicked. Since multiple clicks are themselves trivial extensions I'd have thought the entire application to be invalid and a misuse of the patent process. Personally, I'd like to see the US establish a law that would enable misuses of patent law to be prosecuted as corporate fraud if they're going to persist in allowing patents without examination. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | FWIW the filing references not determining behavior not just by the number of times pressed but also on the duration of the press(es). |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | Wow, that got garbled pretty badly on the way between my brain and the keyboard. Anyway, part of the idea is that [short press] and [long press] can be interpreted differently. (Just like the Pause and Menu buttons on the iPod.) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | How's that for a solid spec? No ambiguity there! Maybe we should all start writing our app specs that way, taking into account every possible click location, duration of click, number of clicks, what the user was wearing when they clicked, their blood type, what they had for lunch that day, their sun sign, etc :) Lawyers are interesting creatures, aren't they? And we wonder why software is so expensive... Seriously though, how can any one hold a patent for that? They're even trying to lay claim to a recording button -- press to start, release to end. Do they seriously think they invented that? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | The reason for applying it to handhelds is to avoid claims of prior art. The patent officers have to explore not double click, but double click on handlhelds. The patent office does investigate, but it looks through printed journals. Little research or practise in IT is written down there. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Rob | So if I put my laptop in my hand, does that make it a handheld? |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Seriously, should I be in the US of A, will I be able to patent the 'impriting of a single point on paper or papers or notions of papers on any equipment, for example computer documents, by using a writing instrument or electronic documentation tool, after a series or sequence of lexical words, to denote contextual completion of aforementioned series or sequence. Such a representation is to be termed as "full-stop" '? And charge people for using full stops? Or sue people for misrepresentation by calling it a 'period'? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dan Maas | In Microsoft's defense, this patent isn't about double-clicking in general, it's about running different programs depending on how long and how many times a button is pressed. Trivial, yes, but I haven't seen this before myself. (and I kind of doubt its usefulness). Also, flowcharts and graphs are mandatory for a patent. Even though source code or pseudo-code would be a better way of expressing the idea, patent law still requires some kind of 'graphical' illustration. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Richard P | So how would MacOS not represent prior art? Click = default action. Click-and-hold = context menu. I'm sure someone's used MacOS on a resource-limited device (like an iMac *snicker*) and/or a touchscreen. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Guy LeDouche | That's probably why Microsoft isn't trying to enforce it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | Whenever you read about a new patent, remember - patent clerks are civil servants that are graded based on how many patent applications they clear each month. The *fastest* way to clear an application is to grant it. Now, putting aside any stereotypes of government employees, realize that at the very least, there's no incentive to really dig into a claim looking for prior art. Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bah humbug | What about Donald Norman's description of the problems he had with a slide projector about a million years ago (see The Design of Everyday Things). If there are any slide projectors with an embedded processor and similar functionality (in fact, you could probably argue that even the embedded processor was irrelevant) then there's some prior art for you. |
| Sat 05 Jun | T. Norman | The USPTO approves 95% of patent applications (although some that 95% are approved only after being amended to add or remove claims). Patents are presumed valid when applied for, and the burden is on the patent examiner to prove why something should NOT be granted a patent, rather than on the applicant to demonstrate the novelty and usefulness of the alleged invention. A system like that guarantees a large number of ridiculous patents. |
| Sat 05 Jun | John C. | So maybe the patent-granting system needs to be more explicitly adversarial. If one set of folks are graded on how many patents they clear each month, another set of folks could be graded on how many patents they are able to find prior art for and disqualify. There are probably a hundred reasons why that wouldn't work, but I'm just thinking about how one could counter the fact that the incentives are one-sided. It's like tying your developers' compensation to how many lines of code they write without regard for actual functionality implemented or quality/bugginess of the result. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Guy LeDouche | I think the 'check and balance' to bogus patents is that if some company goes around extorting (I mean, getting royalty payments for) their bogus patent, and somebody refuses to pay, then it goes to court and the judge declares the patent invalid (e.g. due to prior art), all those previous companies could then sue to recover their money. Which means if Xerox or somebody ever sends you a bill demanding payment for having hyperlinks or a 'simulated button press' that takes viewers to another page on your site, just throw it in the trash... (right, Philo?) |
| Sat 05 Jun | Sriram | I have not read all the posts on this thread.. but.. incase no one else has mentioned this.. Is Microsoft planning to patent the blue screen of death, the End Now dialog, and other inventions? |
| Sun 06 Jun | T. Norman | The trouble with using the courts as the 'check and balance' is that many companies can use the mere threat of court to extort licensing fees. The checks need to be in place before the patents are granted. If the checks can't be in place before granting, patents should not be given the presumption of validity. When there is a dispute, the first thing should be a re-examination of the patent and reconsideration of prior art to challenge or establish its validity before it ever sees the walls of a courtroom. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Philo | You know what an interesting solution would be? Have another branch of the PTO whose job it is to invalidate patents - they get reviewed on how many patents they can find prior art for. So - patent goes to examiner, examiner researches and approves patent, so it goes to the review branch. If a reviewer finds prior art, it goes back to the examiner (first strike against the examiner - now he has to waste time defending the patent). If the examiner can't defend the patent, then it's a ding on his record. If he can, it's a ding on the reviewer's record. And obviously doing the job right the first time (on either side) is their best bet. Patents are adversarial in the courts, but I think having an in-house adversarial system would be more beneficial to everyone in the long run. BTW, the PTO runs at such a profit that they just built a huge new building and Congress is still trying to take excess fee money back into the Treasury. Philo |
| Sun 06 Jun | hmpf | Prio Art Gameboy various Games: Short button click: Fire Weapon hold button: Activate super weapon/ablility/... You dont play games? |
| smart people | Fri 04 Jun | The Real PC |
| This quote is from an earlier post about Ayn Rands philosophy. Ayn articulated the idea that the majority of people do not contribute towards the successfull operation of society. That a few people who do know what theyre doing struggle and fight to maintain and imrpove the world despite the muddled efforts of the ignorant majority. I have noticed this phenomenon becoming more prevailent lately. Or else Im just noticing it more, since I work in arrogant IT-land. This is what happens -- people know themselves from the inside, and know others only from the outside. I, or at least my conscious self, knows I am always more or less doing my best given limited time and information. This is what Herbert Simon called satisificing, and its really the best any human being can hope for. When I make mistakes or bad decisions, I can usually rationalize and forgive myself -- I was over-tired, stressed, the directions were confusing, no one is perfect, I meant well, etc. When, on the other hand, other people make mistakes I only see the bad result, not their good intentions and their legitimate excuses. It often seems like other people are idiots. Especially when driving in traffic. Now, an ordinary person who did not get all As in school might have a little more self-doubt and might be a less judgemental. But the smart person who got As and advanced degrees, etc., is much less likely to doubt him/herself and give others a break. Now the smart person is satisficing just liike everyone else. The smart person cant see even a minute into the future, doesnt know whats going on out of range of his senses and technological devices. The smart person only has room for a limited number of pieces of information in his working memory at any time. The smart person as ruler would screw things up as badly as someone who got Bs and Cs. In conclusion -- Even though I do consider myself a smart person (in some ways), I can see that the idea of smart people as wise rulers is nothing but a myth promoted by arrogance. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr. Analogy | 'Now, an ordinary person who did not get all A's in school might have a little more self-doubt and might be a less judgemental. But the 'smart' person who got A's and advanced degrees, etc., is much less likely to doubt him/herself and give others a break.' I disagree completely. Higher grades are a sign of students being MORE critical and expecting more out of themselves. As an instructor (sw engineering) I noticed the following in my students (and myself as a student): Most of my top students were very self critical. They were always working harder and more concerned about mistakes. The lower peforming students would make a mistake and brush it off, rationalizing as you mentioned. I, personally, am much more critical of myself than of others. It's because I honestly look at my mistakes and see how I could have avoided them. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | The more I read about the Ayn woman the more I dislike she has to say. I'm warey of anybody who considers themselves as 'smart'. So what do geniunely 'smart' people sound like? 'I do not know what I seem to the world, but to myself I appear to have been like a boy playing upon the seashore and diverting myself and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, while the great ocean of truth lay before me all undiscovered. ' 'If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' -- Sir Issac Newton 'Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.' 'The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.' -- Albert Einstein 'You're all so quick to think that you're 'better.' Why notice the splinter in your brother's eye, without taking notice of the beam in your own? ' -- Jesus Christ |
| Fri 04 Jun | hightequity | 'The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves while wiser people are so full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russel |
| Fri 04 Jun | a cynic writes... | You must remember most thinkers feel what they do (sitting down for a good hard think) contributes to society more than someone who unblocks the toilet afterwards. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Martin Page | 'The smart person as ruler would screw things up as badly as someone who got B's and C's.' If by smart you mean rational, then I disagree. Looking at the medieval kings of England, the rational ones ruled well, the irrational screwed up royally. E.g. Edward III new how to juggle people and keep them on side - conquered most of France. Richard II, impetuous and with a tendency to promote people he liked, pissed it all away. However, rational <> learned. Richard II was very literate, while his very successful grandad would probably have been a modern B or C student (though a star at Medieval Total War and Civ). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | 'I, personally, am much more critical of myself than of others. It's because I honestly look at my mistakes and see how I could have avoided them. ' I think the problem is not those who do well at educations, but rather those who do not make mistakes. More specifically, those who are not made aware of there mistakes. It is possible within formal education, especially at the lower levels, to train people to get high grades. The move towards standardised curriculums has made it even worse. So somebody goes to 'good' schools and they're trained to get As all the time without learning to be critical. They mistake their success with their own superiority. Society enforces there misconception by giving them higher salaries and positions of authority. They live in a small, sheltered world protected from their own mistakes, and without knowing our mistakes how are we ever going to really learn? |
| Fri 04 Jun | I make me laugh | Those people should be aware of 'their' mistakes, Ged...
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| Fri 04 Jun | . | Why is "I am good" always understood as "I am better than you"? |
| Fri 04 Jun | a cynic writes... | Way off topic but Edward III also has the distinction of possibly the most effective tennage rebellion ever. Aged 14, he locked his mother in a covent for life and had her boyfriend executed. Something to do with them having had his father killed - with a red hot poker - for being gay (and a crap king). Also if 'Braveheart' is to be believed he was the world's first 7 year pregnancy. |
| Fri 04 Jun | sid6581 | There have been studies showing that less intelligent people have a harder time realizing their own shortcomings, while those who are more intelligent more often realize that they don't know everything. I'm not sure that's correct, though, because I'm super intelligent AND I don't have any shortcomings! :) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Steve Martin | It's not what you know, it's what you *think* you know. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | "Intelligent" is such a loaded word. People get to be better at their work by being critical of their work and trying to improve it. In the "business world" is seems like there's some ambivalence about that attribute, but in the academic world it's the fundamental imperative. The business world ambivalence is what you guys have seen with e.g. Joel's "never rewrite" and "don't be a Shlemiel" articles. Unfortunately we often don't know that we're a Shlemiel until we take the big goop that is our first or second (or fifth!) attempt and condense it into its smallest parts. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Norrick | 'Why is 'I am good' always understood as 'I am better than you'? ' Because an overwhelming majority of people are a) insecure and b) attracted to drama. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | I am not talking about: 'I am good' I am talking about: 'That a few people who do know what they're doing struggle and fight to maintain and improve the world despite the muddled efforts of the ignorant majority.' |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | Just read a sociology article on the results the typical school environment (european country) has on very gifted children: Motivation: - are often bored because of low demand tasks and frequent repeats - low motivation for school tasks, just do the bare minimum - when not challenged, concentration, motivation and creativity decline - without recognition of their own effort and creativity reinforces “bare minimum” attitude Self governance: - low frustration tolerance, low persistence a little patience - reduced attention span - degraded planning ability - under training of long-term memory - bad prioritization and focus - difficulty with written materials - low testscores - perfectionism - irrealistic goal setting (both aiming too high as well as too low) Social competences and attitudes: - isolation from rest of class (they don’t understand me) - dislike of group activities - few or no friends - clamping on to rigid rules, irrespective of the appropriateness in context - extreme sense of “justice” leads to conflict with authority and rebellion - dominating attitude in play - high need for acceptance by others - defensive attitude, shielding true identity from “intruders emotional state: - low self esteem - negative self image, low confidence - loneliness and social anxieties, always the outsider - cynicism - emotional instability, abnormal fears - feeling unaccepted and always misunderstood - permanently dissatisfied with one self - depression This was for the kindergarten environment. It gets worse later. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Sir, Do you know what measure was used to determine children that were gifted, since they scored poorly in traditional tests? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Actually, I'd love to read the whole article. Where did you read it? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | No. I vaguely know the way the tests go here: it is a process that involves many different aspects, an is done by a team of a child psychologist and a logopedist (speach specialist) (on demand, so you may have a bias here). It takes around 7-8 hours, spread out over around as many days. It involves things that are like traditional IQ tests, but include a lot of psychological interview style things, observational stuff, langage ability tests, reasoning problems, emphatie tests etc. |
| Fri 04 Jun | The Real PC | Yes some people are gifted compared to others in some abilities. That does not mean a group of gifted individuals could manage the world better than it is being managed now. A gifted student might catch on more quickly in math, or might be able to read faster and remember and understand more of what they read. But these advantages will not enable them to overcome the limitations of being human. And scholarly abilities are probably not at all related to leadership or creativity. And speaking of creativity -- yes I think some individuals are naturally more creative than others, more able to see from an atypical perspective. But a creative person is likely to be less stable and less grounded than a more conventional person. So great leaders should not be too scholarly or too creative. You need a balanced sort of person, not necessarily a genius. Geniuses have the same old limitations and weaknesses as everyone else, with the added emotional instability. So they might be worse, not better, at governing. (I am not trying to insult creative people, and have always suffered from creativity myself). My point is that no we don't want mentally retarded leaders, but turning the world over to some intellectually gifted snobs would not solve anything and might even make it worse. |
| Fri 04 Jun | son of parnas | >I can see that the idea of smart people as > wise rulers is nothing but a myth promoted by arrogance. The idea of 'wise rulers' is the myth. Wisdom is rare and hard earned. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | Ged, sorry, but it is not in English, and in a local mag (not web). The author is one of the authors of this book http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/209177846X/402-0819660-4913731 in this magazine http://www.marant-ed.nl/currentcontents/tijdschriften/kleutersik.html |
| Fri 04 Jun | Name withheld out of cowardice | Real PC- my knowledge of Rand is limited but it looks to me as if you are drawing wrong inferences. She seems to be talking about how advancements, technological, scientific or otherwise, are done by a small minority of the population. That small minority often finds itself working against the ignorant masses even though they ignorant masses will tend to benefit from the advances the more gifted people produce. It has nothing to do with gifted people ruling. It has less to do with whether or not gifted people are self critical. A very intelligent person may spend his entire life creating nothing of value to society. This in no way detracts from the contributions made by those who do. |
| Fri 04 Jun | The Real PC | 'Ayn articulated the idea that the majority of people do not contribute towards the successfull operation of society.' This does not seem to refer to discoveries or inventions. The operation of society must refer to government. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Name withheld out of cowardice | The operation of society must refer to government? Sure, if you're a left wing wacko. For the rest of us, given a civilized culture, the overwhelming majority of the functioning of society goes on without the need for government intervention. Once again I am no Rand expert but given how much libertarians seem to worship her I must conclude that either she wasn't for big government led by smart people, or libertarians can't read. I'd check it out myself but I tried reading 'The Fountainhead' a few years ago and it was too boring for me to penetrate. I saw the movie though. I thought it sucked and didn't really help me with respect to this thread. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Mr Analogy, the reason you think your top students are more critical is that they're better at sucking up to their instructors. They know how to enlist your support and praise, and they gain more attention from you, and better marks as a result. > Most of my top students were very self critical. They were always working harder and more concerned about mistakes. The lower peforming students would make a mistake and brush it off, rationalizing as you mentioned. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | One confusion in some of the discussion above is the conflating of 'high marks' with being a good ruler. Top students are the last people I would want as rulers, and politics seems to agree. Top students typically have had a life of privilege and for the rest of their life will blame the poor and the underprivileged for their own fate. Imagine being run by the cretins that ran Enron. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alyosha` | One of these days, I'm gonna write a blockbuster novel entitled "Sparticus Shrugged", which has a premise a world in which all the so-called "unwashed masses" decide to take a holiday and all the intellectual elite have to figure out how to grow their own damn food, having never worked an honest day's labor in their life. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | 'all the intellectual elite have to figure out how to grow their own damn food,' at which point they'd design and build machiines to do it for them, mass produce the food, and laugh all the way to the bank while the unwashed masses complain about how technology stole their jobs. Frickin' uneducated Luddites... |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | dangit, I meant machines, not machiines. Wow, laughing at oneself is good medicine. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Name withheld out of cowardice | Alyosha` I think you are missing the point. The Rand point of view was a reaction to the point of view you espouse- all that matters is the work average people do and all this intellectual creative stuff is somewhat suspect and if it works out it must be taxed heavily because the geniuses really owe their existence to, for example, the farmers. I think if one looks at it objectively, both types of people contribute to our society. blank poster- As for the Enron cretins (odd that you call them cretins, which are innately retarded, when your complaint is based on them being smart) the problem with them wasn't their intelligence, it was their arrogance and lack of value for ethics. Thieves pure and simple, they were, and no reason to criticize intelligent people. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | 'both types of people contribute to our society.' I actually agree with this, despite my comment on the Luddites. The manual labor people, however, tend to add value to society in a linear fashion. Mental labor tends to be a multiplier - while it may not directly add value, it can multiply the value that a manual laborer can add. To say that the mental labor people don't do an honest day's work is ludicrous. If mental labor was easier than manual labor, more people would do it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | name withheld, no, my complaint was not based on Enron execs being smart, but on them being high achievers by their own criteria. This would be synomous with generally scoring high marks. My point is that high marks do not necessarily equate to being smart, either in the general sense, or in the sense of making good rulers. The problems you ascribe to Enron execs, of arrogance and dishonesty, are precisely the failings I would ascrive to a ruling class composed of people with high marks. By the way, I did not say Enron execs had high intelligence. Also, before we get too distracted with periperhal issues, I am not condemning intelligence or intelligent people. I am condemning the claim that those with high marks would make good rulers. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | I've read most of Ayn Rand's fiction and a great deal of her non-fiction. Most of the posts in this and the previous Rand thread are ascribing views to her which she would have found offensive or worse. She never wrote anything advocating society should be run by the 'intelligent' (whatever that is supposed to mean) - in fact she railed vehemently against precisely such movements in history. See for example any of her essays in 'Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal', 'For the New Intellectual' or 'Philosophy: Who Needs It?'. She was absolutely not a fascist either and reserved her strongest damnation for statists of all types - fascists, communists, etc. It is no coincidence that Mussolini banned her movie 'We The Living' after he realised it wasn't just critical of the Russians. There have been plenty of threads on this forum complaining about arrogant, 'know it all' programmer types who don't understand the topic they are talking about and yet are still willing to hold forth with their opinion because they perceive themselves as 'smart' and hence even their speculations must be accurate. I think if people are going to paraphrase the views of a writer, politician, philosopher, computer scientist, or any fellow human being, they ought to at least provide a verbatim quote with the surrounding context. Otherwise they are adding nothing but hot air to the conversation. It is also irritating to see people posting ideas from other people's commentaries or interpretations of Rand (e.g. libertarians, other books, etc.), rather than going directly to the source. Could you understand medicine by reading biographies of famous doctors? As programmers, aren't we taught that the documentation is always suspect and to find out what's really happening, we need to look at the source? This should be obvious. |
| Fri 04 Jun | mackinac | >>>Most of the posts in this and the previous Rand thread are ascribing views to her which she would have found offensive or worse.<<< It has been some time since I have read any AR, but this is the impression I have had in reading this and the previous thread. To take the statement that started this thread: >>>Ayn articulated the idea that the majority of people do not contribute towards the successfull operation of society. <<< In Atlas Shrugged, the conflict was between the productive people - inventers, business people, artists, etc., and the 'looters', those who survive by somehow taking from the productive people by taxation, regulation, whatever. The statement above about 'majority of people do not...' doesn't seem so much wrong as irrelevant to the thesis of AS. >>>'Sparticus Shrugged', which has a premise a world in which all the so-called 'unwashed masses' decide to take a holiday and all the intellectual elite have to figure out how to grow their own damn food, having never worked an honest day's labor in their life. <<< This might not be so greatly different from Atlas Shrugged. When the protagonists, the productive ones, of AS decide to go off to their isolated valley they have to grow their own food, pump their own oil and make their own shoes. A few university professors, the intellectual elite, end up working as telephone lineman. AR emphasizes the creativity of her characters, but they are not usually strangers to manual labor. The valley residents include a railroad brakeman and a truck driver, so they are not all intellectually elite. |
| Sat 05 Jun | slackerssuck | Nice to finally see some people who know what they are talking about. It's just amazing how many dumb people there are here, but I think just about everyone in our business is smart enough if they have the right leaders/mentors. I don't think you need to be all that smart anyhow contrary to public opinion. It's funny how often people won't simply admit they shouldn't do something. And I see smart people doing this. And then when you should take some time to think before you just jump in to swim ... I see otherwise smart people make really dumb decisions on what and how to do things. This is really bad because now this will just grow into the biggest mess and yet there are people on the sidelines who see it for what it is but say nothing. I don't think the problem is as much about intelligence as it is about patience, honesty and courage. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Ged Byrne | Aloysha and no name, I wish I could express myself so well. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Ged Byrne | mackinac, You make Rand sound much more attractive. These are ideas that I could ascribe to. However, I must remind you of one planet where they decided to do something about it. They created a rumour that the world was going to end and created 3 arcs. In the 'A' arc they put all the thinkers. Those that did all of the thinking, like philosophers and poets. In the 'C' arc they put all of the workers. Farmers, craftsman and the like. In the 'B' arc they put all the rest, people like the middle managers and the telephone sanitisers. They said that all of the arcs would be sent off to a new planet, but in reality only the B arc was sent. The occupants of the A and C arcs remained and lived for many years in peace and prosperity, until the entire population was wiped out by a disease contracted from dirty telephones. Who needs Rand when you have Adams? ps. For those who don't know, the occupants of the B arc went on to colonise Earth. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | >I see otherwise smart people make really dumb decisions on what and how to do things. Then how come they are smart? Define 'smart'. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Anon from Singapore | 'A gift of a programme' This is really what happened in Singapore. We have meritocracy (meritocrazy) system to promote top students as the leader in government and society. A reading at http://www.straitstimes.com.sg/commentary/story/0,4386,254632,00.html? (for these 3 days) 'ALL countries, including communist regimes, have their elites. The key point is how they select those elites. In Singapore's meritocratic system, the choice has been clear: Education is a primary means of selection. The Gifted Education Programme (GEP), which has nurtured the top 1 per cent of students since it was launched in 1984, is proof of the CORRECTNESS of the approach. ' |
| Sat 05 Jun | mackinac | >>>You make Rand sound much more attractive. <<< My intent was to support '.' 's posting that a lot of posters are making statements about Rand without having any real idea of what she was advocating. This is a general problem with political ideas. People decide what they like, then come up with arguments as to what is wrong with the other guy without ever bothering to understand what they're against. Like '.' said, if you want to understand what Rand was saying, you'll just have to go read her yourself. My description of who the 'looters' in Atlas Shrugged were was not very good. I think if she were going to send any group off on an ark it would be the 'they'. |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | 'That a few people who do know what they're doing struggle and fight to maintain and imrpove the world despite the muddled efforts of the ignorant majority.' You mean that: a) the people who know what they're doing are actually trying to improve the world? b) the ignorant majority is somehow a hindernace to this? I see no evidence of this whatsoever in the world. Maybe Ayn Rand can talk about this because her circle of friends was part of the literati, and could write books that get critical praise, and are ignored by the public at large, thus the elitist and arrogant attitude 'We're working to improve the world and you're not.' The very wording 'who know what they are doing' smacks of a certain kind of arrogance that just bothers me. It implies that there's an inner circle, privy to some special knowledge or perhaps even more than just knowledge - a strength of character - who are superior to everyone else. I guess it's also ambigious in that it can mean both self knowledge, and a more particular kind of knowledge. It's like a parent, teacher, or movie cliche` 'Do you know what you've just done? By you're blundering you've set into motion an unstoppable series of events that will lead to the destruction of the world.' It seems to me that by-and-large the people who 'know what they are doing' aren't working towards the 'improvement of the world.' By this I mean the captians of industry, leading figures in media and politicians. Certianly they, more than any of us ignorant proletariat understand the implications of their actions on a broad scope, in terms of it's effect on society, and the world at large. Yet I see no evidence that they're working to improve the world. Yes there are those in, say, PETA and Greenpeace (who are classified as terrorists, by the US government), and certain writers of books who can - with full arrogant self awareness say 'I am trying to improve the world, what are you doing?' Yet I can't say they actually are, not by any objective means of measuring the status of the world. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | To all 'normal' people who are not 'smart' and 'arrogant', please do read her books first. Please. You would be surprised that she portrays 'men' and not 'supermen'. |
| Sat 05 Jun | VPC | Putting smart people into politics has been done before, but with unwanted results. China was more advanced than Europe in middle ages, but then they decided to stand still. Guy called Joseph Needham: The son of a successful merchant aspired, not to expand the family business, but to prepare for imperial examinations and to enter mandarinate. These values underplayed the importance of bettering the material conditions of everyday life; in fact, they came to produce a collective self-satisfaction which might not unfairly be called smugness. |
| Sat 05 Jun | . | MarkTAW, I agree with most of what you say, but this comment is exactly the reverse of the truth: 'Maybe Ayn Rand can talk about this because her circle of friends was part of the literati, and could write books that get critical praise, and are ignored by the public at large' Ayn Rand was hated by the literati, and in her long career she collected more 'critical' condemnation from those people than any other writer I can think to name. It was the 'public at large' that made her famous by buying her books, principally through word of mouth. The Fountainhead was rejected by either eleven or twelve publishers (I think the latter). She was anathema to the Left because she was against the welfare state, and to the Right because she was against religion. Atlas Shrugged was famously hatcheted by the National Review (of all people). It has only been in the last five to ten years that her writings have been *widely* considered genuine literature or philosophy. The self-titled 'elites' of society (i.e. those utopians who consider themselves intelligent and would like to impose their lunacy on the rest of us) despise Rand and always have. And speaking of those elites, if you look at history I'd say conservatively 90% of the deaths in war or famine have been caused by just such people: the people who must re-invent the Earth in every generation, because they feel they know how reality *should* work. People who look for power as a means to 'change the world' are the single biggest cause of all the horror to befall man. |
| Sun 06 Jun | . | "The worst kind of a second hander is the man after power" - Fountainhead. |
| Recommendations: best IDE for RedHat/Gnome? | Fri 04 Jun | badblue.com/blog |
| Any recommendations for best IDE for converted Win32/Visual Studio developers? Ive used Visual SlickEdit under Gnome and its... decent. Is there something else I can recommend to these developers that would make them feel comfortable, given their experience with VS .NET and VC6? Thanks. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Are you going to work on C/C++? Try CodeWarrior from Metrowerks, it compiles binaries for both platforms. Or, try working remotely from a windows client to you *nix box with http://home.worldonline.dk/viksoe/bvrde.htm |
| Fri 04 Jun | .conf | The big ones are KDevelop and Anjuta. KDevelop is integrated into the KDE environment, with a bent toward developing with the KDE/Qt libs, and Anjuta toward the GTK end of things. They're not mutually exclusive though. For visual work, Glade is usually used for GTK related stuff, QtDesigner for Qt. I say they're intended for particular uses, but they're not mutually exclusive. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Emacs. |
| Fri 04 Jun | old_timer | Real Unix programmers only need vi |
| Fri 04 Jun | Katie Lucas | VI's ok if you're just writing code. If you want to refactor stuff, EMACS's multi-buffer editing and kill-code/yank-code methodology is way ahead. Seriously -- the only people I've seen go on a serious 'IDE' hunt for Linux are the ones that can't really do UNIX development anyway; they're suffering, and they think it's VI's fault rather than their own. Bad workman etc. The best UNIX developers I know are split roughly 50/50 between favouring VI and EMACS, but are OK on the other anyway. UNIX tends to favour building your own dev environments. Scripts and makefiles are easy to put together -- you just roll your own stuff. Eg; we have a script that creates empty C++ classes, with all the member declarations in place, puts them in the right directories, adds them to the subversion repository... it took 30 seconds to write and it's /EXACTLY/ what we need. No IDE will match your environment as well as a set of tools you build yourself. It's for that reason that it's vital that UNIX developers develop using UNIX tools. No, it's not graphical. It's not as shiny. It's a DIFFERENT approach is all. All the IDE's seem to inflict a Windows development methodology onto the UNIX process and it never seems to gel properly. It works the other way -- try and do Windows development by messing about with scripts instead of playing things the IDE way and it all goes pear-shaped. There's a system philosophy at work that it hurts to go against. Go learn Emacs to edit code, Perl and bashto automate things with and Make to do your builds and your development will get fast and easy. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Andrew Murray | Monodevelop is really becoming the bomb. Check it out. |
| Who should I hire? | Fri 04 Jun | kitty kat |
| I run a small software development company with one partner - 2 man business. Thing is, it is very hard to find good software programmer in this part of the world. I am divided between two programmers, call them A and B. A is VERY highly paid, have the right paper qualifications, catch up pretty fast, and could contribute in management(marketing) apart from programming. B on the other hand, is less talented than A, paid much less than A but has great poptential in software development given some time. We can teach B the routes of business, and I am sure B can also contribute to management (marketing) sooner or later. At present, A is better than B. Thing is, I am worried of A. A agrees to work with us because of the high pay and the bad job market condition. Otherwise, A would work for some big corporations as expected for people like A. The other day, I sort of caught A searching for other employment in other companies. A is given a large responsiblity in our company, and losing A would be a real pain to us. I would really like to hire both A and B to minimize the risk of losing A, actually. But we are a small start-up (6 months old) and cannot afford the both of them (actually, we are covering As very high salary). At the end of the month, we will have to decide whom to let go. Naturally, B would have to go as B is an intern. If we decide to let B remain, B will. However, having A is shaky and having to put so much responsiblities on A is very risky given As low loyalty for our company. I am asking you fellow software developers your opinions as I am not a software developer (my partner does all the development work, I do the rest like marketing). Who should we let go? PS: My partner and I cannot reach a conclusion. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Hire B and help him grow up. If you treat him right, he'll develop bonds with you and your company that go beyond that of boss and employee. He'll feel part of the family and before you notice, he'll be contributing in ways you didn't even imagine. A, on the other hand, will hit the ground running, but as soon as the job market gets better, or as soon he figures out he'd prefer to be doing other things, he'll leave you cold - no matter what type of activities he's involved with. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Everyone reads job ads. Get over it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Assuming your company has plenty of work that needs to get done, I would talk to Developer B (the intern) and see what his/her current life situation is like. Perhaps Developer B would be very willing to stay on temporarily at a very low salary (i.e. $1 an hour)? The upside of proposing something like this is that Developer B can take his/her time searching for another job while showing current relevant employment on his/her resume. |
| Fri 04 Jun | chance | I'm with RP on this one. Regards, chance. |
| Fri 04 Jun | a | I wasn't looking at jobs. I was looking at some nice kiddy porn when I felt someone sneaking up behind me so I quickly selected one of my favourites at random to cover it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C | A people hire A people, B people hire C people. Simple as that. Just because someone is an A doesn't predispose them to want to chop and change jobs all the time, they're more likely to know what they want out of a job and stick with something rather than have a "grass is always greener" mentality (in my experience at least). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | I like David Ogilivy's advice "Always hire people smarter than you". |
| Fri 04 Jun | mackinac | >>>Otherwise, A would work for some big corporations as expected for people like A. <<< Why do you believe this? A lot of experienced talented people that I know prefer to work for a small company or as independent consultants. And if you give A a small piece of equity in the company he'd have an economic incentive to stay. You state the following: - You have to let one of them go at the end of the month. - You have seen A looking for alternate employment. What's wrong here? You're concerned because an employee who might loose his job at the end of the month would be looking for another job? Are you keeping this a secret.? If he knows it, I'd be more concerned about someone who wasn't thinking ahead. If I were A, I'd be looking for another job, just because of the fuzzy thinking by someone who is running the company. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bill Rushmore | Keep A. Companies that only hire people they can afford will fail. Why not offer A some equity in exchange for salary? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Herr Herr | In such a small company, having excellent staff is critical. Go for A. No question about it. B could develop, B could become good - and B could realise one day that he could get another $20K from another company. Nothing is certain. Forget about 2 years time. You need the person to earn their keep today and tomorrow and for the next months. You can't afford anything but excellent people in such a small company. I speak from (painful) experience from my own time running a small IT consultancy. |
| Fri 04 Jun | who to hire? | What if there aren't any people smarter than you? |
| Fri 04 Jun | lateral thinking | Hire B and pay him more than he currently deserves. This shows that you believe in him and are investing in him. He will remeber this when he's a more skilled and has other job offers. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Beetle | If I had been the one to ask the question...I would pick A after reading all the suggestions. Go with A |
| Fri 04 Jun | MilesArcher | Just because you think A could work for a large company, what makes you think he/she would want to? Some people prefer small, growing companies with lots of challenges. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Katie Lucas | I agree with mackinac -- he could be out of work in a month, of COURSE he's reading job adverts! Heck, I'm not leaving where I am, but I still read job adverts. The company I work for could suddenly just go bust under me or something. Hire the bright one. ALWAYS hire the bright ones - the brighter the better. Bright people are interested in more than money. Most of the people I know of (including me) could earn tons more -- we're in the jobs we're in for other reasons. One guy is looking for position, one is looking for an easy ride, my partner likes a job that means he gets to talk to people and I've got a job where we get to make technical decisions properly.. Offer him something worth more than money... |
| Fri 04 Jun | ronk! | I get the feeling those advocating hiring B have never managed or hired before. B is an unknown quantity, and therefore a bigger gamble. B could turn into a superstar, or more likely a poor developer who will slow you down. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bored Bystander | Kitty Kat, you need to become clearer about your own goals. Do you want to develop a 'lifetime' employee that you can mold, or do you need to get a lot of work slammed out right now? You probably can't have both unless you keep both people. Employment at a small company is inherently unstable. A is probably reading the job ads because he has the life experience to understand that fact. Someone with a lot of experience will almost invariably be self protective and cynical and continually looking for ways to mitigate their own risk. Just as you are doing right now for your own business. If you need the superb technical 'chops' right now, you will *have* to accept the rest of the 'highly experienced person package.' HR people tend to think like dumbasses with no people-sense: that a guru can be treated as though they are (or should be) completely naive. Don't be stupid about it. Recognize as you should that experienced people look out for #1. BTW - I really like the idea of equity sharing for the experienced person. But also don't do the stupid typical small company thing of making it a paltry piece of crap loaded with risk, if you expect the person to sacrifice income to vest in it... |
| Sat 05 Jun | Brad | You're asking developers which developer they'd retain. You should be asking managers which developer they'd retain. My $0.02 have nothing to do with who's the better coder; I want to know who's got the better brain. Who understands your business better? Who can speak intelligently with a non-technical client and understand the concepts being discussed? Who is the best at turning those ideas into functioning code? That's who you want to keep. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Actually, I think your answer should be C: kick both of those ass-monkeys to the curb. Neither of them deserve to be in the presence of such a briliant mind as yours. |
| designing logos just 1$ | Fri 04 Jun | mojokanda |
| do you want your own signature 3dimension with textutres just one dollar and you will get information just email me and i will explain to you |
| Fri 04 Jun | Green Pajamas | Icons too? Any samples? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Tom H | I'll fax you a euro if you email me my 3D signature |
| Fri 04 Jun | Anonymous Coward | So for a dollar you will tell me how to create my own logo... How about you pay me a dollar, and I kick you in the balls? |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | nice advertisement beach. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Norrick | Can I get some scrambled eggs & coffee to go with that SPAM? |
| Sun 06 Jun | NNL | designing ERP applications for just 1$ do you want your own ERP application three/n tier with source code just one dollar and you will get information just email me and i will explain to you PS - Intentionally no e-mail. |
| Help - suggestions for IDE to use... | Fri 04 Jun | Ron Moddesette |
| Hello, Im a Smalltalk developer wanting to branch out and was wondering what tools to use for a shareware app. I want to develop a small app that could be used by most people so Im thinking of using Visual studio 6 or Visual Studio.NET. Since I want the app to be available to a wide variety of users, I dont want the user to have to install the .NET runtime. My question is whether I can use Visual Studio.NET to produce code that can be run without the .NET runtime(Im guessing not). Should I just stick with the old Visual Studio and use C++ and MFC? Thanks in advance. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr. Analogy | ' My question is whether I can use Visual Studio.NET to produce code that can be run without the .NET runtime(I'm guessing not). Should I just stick with the old Visual Studio and use C++ and MFC? ' 1. Visual Studio .net programs require the .net runtime. Compressed (for download) it's 20MB or so). 2. C++ developed with visual studio does not require the runtime if you compile it for 'standalone'. (I'm no C++ expert, but this is what I learned researching the same question) 3. Have you considered Delphi? Much easier to use than C++ and compiles small standalone exe's. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ron Moddesette | Thanks for the reply. I've not considered Delphi since I don't have access to a Delphi IDE. Is one available to free? Thanks |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Ron, There is a free license available for Delphi, but it does not give you commercial rights. As a smalltalk developer I think you should take some time to look at Eiffel and Ruby. These are the two main options that are pure OO. EiffelStudio costs a lot money, but like eiffel it can be downloaded and use for free as long as you stay non-commercial. http://www.eiffelstudio.net One big advantage to Eiffel is that it is fully compiled. Another is that it can also target the .Net clr. Another eiffel option is SmartEiffel. This is an open source version with a very powerful compiler. http://smarteiffel.loria.fr/index.html Another language you should consider is Ruby. This is a scripting lanuage but you can use exeRb to create independant executables. Code such as '5.upto 10 { |n| puts n }' is very close to Smalltalk. http://www.ruby-lang.org http://exerb.sourceforge.jp/index.en.html ArachnoRuby is an excellent Ruby IDE. http://www.scriptolutions.com/ruby_cgi.php |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | That should be 'but like Delphi' |
| Fri 04 Jun | Giovanni Corriga | Ron, have you considered using Dolphin Smalltalk? You could leverage your Smalltalk knowledge _and_ be able to create a standalone app. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ron Moddesette | Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll use everyone's suggestions as a starting point for some research. I see I may have been too narrow in my initial thinking and will look into the other options mentioned. Ron. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | I'm curious as to what the aversion is to the .NET framework runtime installation... You stated your requirement as having the app be available to a wide variety of users, but I don't see how the .NET framework limits you there, since the options you are considering (like MFC) already tie you to the Windows platform. The framework is available at least from Win98 forward, isn't it? There are other reasons for avoiding dependency on the framework -- like simply not wanting your users to have to download the 25MB installer, which would be problematic if you were targeting people on dialup. But that's not really 'availability' so much as convenience. Also, I believe there is a product that will take a .NET executable and make it into a standalone package. I can't remember the name at the moment though :( But I doubt it's free...and it probably makes a very bloated exe. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Ron Moddesette | I don't want to use .NET framework due to the large download required for dial up people. I was thinking of doing a shareware app targeting children since I have young children myself. That is the only reason I was trying to avoid the .NET framework. However, all things considered, since I don't really expect to make any money, I might consider .NET since it is a nice development framework. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Ged Byrne | Bill Rayer has just updated his Lingo language, why not give it a try? http://www.lingolanguage.com/ |
| If you were Microsoft, what would you do? | Thu 03 Jun | Alyosha` |
| Alright, time to bring up the old proverb: before you criticise someone, walk a mile in their shoes. (That way, youll have a mile head start and they wont have shoes to chase you with) ... Put yourselves in SteveB and BillGs place. Office and Windows are becoming mature products and upgrade revenue is eroding. Linux is undercutting the server market. Google is light-years ahead of MSN search. Your last major visionary push, which promised much, dwindled down to no more than a reworked version of Java and a better ASP. But you got 30,000 employees and 52 billion in the bank. What do you do now? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dennis Forbes | I would split the company up. Microsoft has some incredibly talented individuals, but the nature in which they build themselves an anchor and then tie it around the entire company has grown tiresome to a cynical public. Teams at Microsoft aren't free to make best in breed solutions unless it somehow validates and pushes some central vision. There is too much technologically political baggage hanging off of every design decision. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | I'd make Windows Longhorn insanely great and ship it when it's ready. 'Your last major visionary push, which promised much, dwindled down to no more than a reworked version of Java and a better ASP.' That's a bit harsh, isn't it? I thought Bob had potential. And I believe Microsoft have got ~50K employees, not 30K. |
| Thu 03 Jun | hoser | Dennis Forbes hits the nail on the head. Weird that the anti-trust option would have actually been the silver bullet. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Me | Games. I think RPG and the MMORPG games are in their infancy in terms of the net. I recall years ago (way back in 1996-7) guys at a casino I worked at talked about playing some online game. I worked at an ISP where people played some online game. I did not even play solitaire and rarely played tetris. But when my kids were visiting we needed things to do so I set them up with their own computers and we had a lan and I thought about buying a game. We played and still play Age of Empires for hours on end. Since then I've bought all kinds of similar games and even the very bad sequel to that but we still only pay Age of Empires. A great game imho ... of course it could always be better but in that quest they can make it worse as they did but we can stick with the older version (not the real old ones though). My kids live in another country so we don't get togehter every weekend. They now have DSL. As much as they like AOE it's usually too much trouble for us to get together at the same time to play. I tried some online game but it really looked stupid, I can't recall the name. I could not figure out how Everquest worked. Did I have to buy the software and then go online or download or what? I don't like games like Wolfenstein although my nephews liked that and we hosted a few games. I then found a game called A Tale in The Desert. http://atitd.com/ very, very interesting. And I actually spent more than a few hours learning and building wealth. You are supposed to be able to build your own civilizations there ... houses, etc. I got my kids to download and connect ... ATITD did a good job to make this easy. I use linux and the kids use windows and it's easy for both of us. But it was too hard for the kids (and it's only in English which is not my kids' native tongue) ... I even think they require a bit too much work to just get some basic stuff. But it is intriguing. I have a paid account and am going to keep at it for ahwile. I think there is tremendous potential here. HOWEVER, if they try and make me use one operating system then I will probably not do it unless it was VERY good. AOE is so good imho that I keep windows boxes around for when the kids are here but there is no other game I'd say that for. So I say go full force into games, MMORPG ... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/ | I watched today "Inside Actor's Studio", I like it. Lipman asked a next guest "what do you do when you not know how to perform?". Actors are not engineering staff, but the answer may take your attention: "do nothing". |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bill Rushmore | First I would promote Philo and give him a big raise... Oher than I wouldn't do a lot different. Right now they seem to doing pretty well. But I would change the strategy for the 'third World'. There is a huge potential market to be tapped that open source is making a claim in. I would make localized cut down dirt cheap OS's to get them hooked. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mr. Analogy | If I were Bill Gates, I'd retire and play with my kids. |
| Thu 03 Jun | pds | Games is a terrible idea, especially as a focus. Several major game publishers are losing lots and lots of money, and you don't ever hear about the ones that are doing well. So no, Microsoft shouldn't go into games (as a focus). Incidentally AoE (the game mentioned above) is one of several published by Microsoft. PS--I don't know what Microsoft SHOULD go into, besides maintaining their stranglehold of the OS and office suite categories. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mr. Fancypants | Microsoft is already into games and MMORPGs. Asheron's Call I & II (which didn't do so great) and they will be publishing Vanguard, from Sigil Games, which is made up of a lot of ex-Sony employees who worked on the original Everquest. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mark Hoffman | 'Microsoft is already into games and MMORPGs. Asheron's Call I & II' ..which they sold back to Turbine, the original developer. AC2 was a huge money pit, but AC1 has apparently been reasonably profitable, just not enough for MS. Gaming is not a terrible idea. It's an absolutely huge industry, but it is a risky market given the amount of money it takes to ship a single product that has such a short shelf-life. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mr 2020 | The answer is staring us all in the face. Defence is a business and Philo's alma mater, the Midway, is available since it's being converted into a museum piece. Philo is being groomed to become Microsoft's first Admiral. The Flight Simulator team has mastered carrier landings and is about to create a new division called the Carrier Air Wing. They will be advertising for top FS players to remuster as naval aviators. |
| Thu 03 Jun | (Required; Required as in TYPE HERE) | I'd make my platform more stable so that more people upgrade. Crap, did that too (XP). Based upon the 'how many steps to create a database' measure, I'd make it easier to develop 'enterprise' level business apps on a RDBMS. Oh, crap . . . already did that (SQL Server). Then, I'd make it more logical/easier to develop on my platform. Crap! Just did that (.NET). Ok, well, I'd consolidate the information that's available in all of the application 'silos' you guys are working on . . . information stored/accessible via the file system, RDBMs and now even webservices . . . and make that information generically describable/mappable and universally available. I think I'll call that WinFS implemented via ObjectSpaces. Oh, I'd be afraid . . . unless you're 'open', much of your work will become redundant! I'm sick of the 'MS isn't innovating' crap . . . you guys are able to write programs because of their innovation (VC++ -> VB), access 2 or 3 RDBMs stores (with the same lines of code) because of their innovation (OLEDB -> ADO) and able to spend all day at work surfing JOS because of the ease of our jobs thanks to their tools. btw, before you reply w/ the 'nice advertising, beeitch' . . . I don't work for 'em. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Lou D'Acriss | what to do? A 2 step plan. 1. Quit talking about security and actually do something .... i.e., re-write your biggest selling products so that they don't have more holes than a ton of swiss cheese. It'll cost a lot, but so what. you've got $50 Billion in the bank. 2. Cut the price of Windows and Office to a fraction of their current level. Sever all ties with the BSA Gestapo, get rid of 'product activation' and release your products under more reasonable licensing terms. This would virtually eliminate the incentive to switch from Windows to Linux and guarantee a Windows monopoly for years to come. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Philo | '1. Quit talking about security and actually do something .... ' Have you looked at Windows Server 2003? Philo |
| Thu 03 Jun | Lawrence | I'll tell you what I'd do, man, two chicks at the same time, man. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I had a 52 billion dollars I could hook that up, cause chicks dig a dude with money. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Akilesh Ayyar | Make sure that the most popular digital content online only works well on a Microsoft-DRM-enabled platform. I'm sure they're trying to do this already. They'd also better stay ahead of the open source stuff. Windows, Office, and their other software better be constantly improved. But generally I think they're doing some pretty smart things business-wise. They're not wasting money on stupid acquisitions just because they've got it to waste. They're making strategic entrances into other large, potentially very profitable businesses (i.e. Xbox). What else have they to do but wait and watch and buy up anything that looks promising, all the while investing deeply in their own R&D? They're doing these things... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Simon Lucy | Ummm stupid acquisitions... Microsoft CRM That immediately springs to mind. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | Some companies should simply liquidate themselves and shut down. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Berlin Brown | I think MS will pour an amazing amount of funds into Research and Development, and of course setup major tech centers in India and China. But, I think, once again it puts them in a very powerful position, they have jumped head first into higher the greatest minds from all over the world, they may not even know what the next technology will be in the next couple of years but by attrition somebody on their team may discover it. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Somorone | MS should accept open source instead of fighting it. I don't mean that they should opensource any of their products but just tell people that Windows works well with open source tools like Apache and PHP and you don't need Linux to run that or mysql. |
| Thu 03 Jun | andrew | Wait. See what the next big thing is. Buy a company in that software area. Fix their product. Crush the competition. Repeat. |
| Thu 03 Jun | .NET Developer | 're-write your biggest selling products so that they don't have more holes than a ton of swiss cheese. ' You haven't learnt what's about software rewrites here in JOS, have you? Youre just a poser here.. =) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | There's still a lot to be done in the mobile market. MS has been very active in that sector in recent years, but I think we've only scratched the surface on what could be done. Now that web services are a reality, they can also look at providing SOA building blocks. They've started to with Passport, but there's a lot more that could be done there too. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Norrick | 'Some companies should simply liquidate themselves and shut down. ' Agreed. Good thing Microsoft isn't one of them. I don't think Microsoft needs to do anything different. We're all taking as gospel the OP's assertion that upgrade revenue is declining and that Linux is cutting into Microsoft's server market share. I'm not sure if that is really the case. |
| Fri 04 Jun | yet another anon | Do what the other big software companies do - expand their consulting business. |
| Fri 04 Jun | karthik | < |
| Fri 04 Jun | hoser | I tell ya what... Paul Allen is having more fun than Gates. Building EMP, the SciFi museum, funding Space Ship 1, ... All kinds of cool stuff. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Akilesh Ayyar | I dunno, I'd rather dictate the future of computing -- as much as anyone can so dictate -- than do those things. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | > Put yourselves in SteveB and BillG's place Suntan oil... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paul Sharples | I think Microsoft needs to hijack the Internet. Here's one way I can see it playing out. The costs associated with running an ISP or portal are going to continue to rise (if MS can arrange it), necessitating advertising dollars to stay in business. Now, if MS can convince the marketers to present their ads in a format which only IE can understand, then the portals and ISPs will get a better revenue stream. The reason for this will be that one of the features of this new ad format is that - thanks to DRM and IE - they can't be bypassed or switched off (well, maybe subscriptions could bypass the ads). The news is all good for the web sites and marketeers, whilst MS gets to timewarp back to 1997 and finish the job of ensconcing IE as the only web browser on the planet. The timing is the tricky part. Competing portals must switch to the new format simultaneously - if Coca Cola uses the new ads but Pepsi remains 'open' then Coca Cola will risk marginalisation. The highest profile web properties must be persuaded that it's in their best interests to make the switch... and must be made to do so within a short time of each other. Obviously, this would be the death of Google, Yahoo, IBM and Sun, who would all have to prostrate themselves to MS to get IE running on Linux and Solaris and would lose the freedom to innovate through J2EE. The question is: would they all recognise the danger and club together to stave it off? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paul Sharples | Another operation in the war for control of the Internet is the support for Mono. The prevailing opinion is that MS doesn't like Mono and wants to see it fail. I think this view is exactly wrong. MS would love Mono to achieve a single aim: for all potential J2EE developers to choose Mono instead. To this end, they've been financing Ximian and providing them with technical assistance. The only thing they've been careful not to do is to demonstrate any enthusiasm for the project - to do that would panic the Linux community who would then reject the technology on religious grounds. Once solutions are deployed on Mono, they become candidates for conversion to .NET, and MS will ensure that it's cheaper for them to go that route than it would for them to convert to J2EE. One thing is for certain: the initial implementation will find it hard to scale whilst it remains on Mono - MS will be in a position to ensure that the necessary technology never makes it onto the poor man's platform. |
| Fri 04 Jun | (.) | build the enterprise and explore beyond the final frontier |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | I think for the most part they are doing the right thing: focus on R&D to get away from the commoditization horizon It is a high risk game though: you have to spend an awfull lott of cash for a small percentage probability increase of scoring a few hits. But lets face it, there is no choice. The IT industry, appart from the (partly accidental?) Wintel heressey, is always a closed bundle game: Hardware+software+service. Wintel was different because it allowed a more open platform. Lots of ISV's and competition combined with a massmarket ambition of the layer holding it all together (Windows) made for a great value proposition, to the enormous dislike of the traditional closed forces. Even MS did play a partial HW+SW bundel through the default hw sales pricing. Unfortunately this practice has been ruled illegal. As a consequence there now can be parasites that ride on the defacto standard, that don't have to pay towards the creators of that standard. Since the parasites can play the commoditization game without incurring the enormous R&D innovation investments risks, this asks for changes in the whole game. So, innovation through R&D results will have to be protected from commoditization. I do believe we will see the rebel (wintel) pulled into the fold of the full platform bundels. This is what the whole 'free hardware' thing is about. You get a Dell with your Windows Licence, just like you get a Sun with your Solaris licence or a Mac with your OS X licence. the question remains in how far support and services will be rebudeled. IBM has always been the champion of the full bundle, ever since the lucrative maiinframe era. However, this model was even punched by the rise of the mini's. Now the OSS movement and IBM are having a go at it again. Bundeling the service genie back in the bundle bottle might just happen. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'just like you get a Sun with your Solaris licence' When we ask Sun for prices, what we get is the hardware price, which includes a Solaris license; i.e., the big bucks are attached to the hardware, not the software. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | 'When we ask Sun for prices, what we get is the hardware price, which includes a Solaris license; i.e., the big bucks are attached to the hardware, not the software' Does it matter what they tell you you pay for if it is always bundeled? Sun says thay are counting on hardware becoming basicaaly free in the 2005 timeframe ( http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=5304507&src=rss/technologyNews§ion=news ). All this means is that they make HW+SW inseparable, or do you expect you can walk up to them and ask: 'I'll take a free Sun Fire E25K, hold the service and software'? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'Does it matter what they tell you you pay for if it is always bundeled? Sun says thay are counting on hardware becoming basicaaly free in the 2005 timeframe' In that case, they'll have to change the way they present their bills/budget estimates. The impression they give is exactly yhe opposite - you're buying Sun hw, and the sw is an after-thought. So, the point is that, right now, you're buying HW and getting SW bundled. I'm not saying they won't change it, or that it makes any difference in what you get in the package, but that's how they present their stuff. You're not getting an E10000 when you buy Solaris, you're getting Solaris when you buy an E10000. A fine point, and prolly not even worth all the electrons we've already used ;) |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Bundling SW and HW is going a full circle, imo. We began with that. MS would do better by releasing Windows on SPARC, even if that means buying Sun off. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | 'A fine point, and prolly not even worth all the electrons we've already used' Ah, but it is an interesting point though. If you charge for the HW, someone could maybe force you to unbundle your software from it. If you charge for the SW, they could still force you to sell the SW unbundeled from the 'free' HW, but that doesn't matter since your software will only run on that hardware. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'If you charge for the HW, someone could maybe force you to unbundle your software from it. If you charge for the SW, they could still force you to sell the SW unbundeled from the 'free' HW, but that doesn't matter since your software will only run on that hardware.' Good point. Hadn't considered it. It should be easier writing a replacement for Solaris than building a replacement for an E10000. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kdr | Some of the business Microsoft should get into in big way: 1. Digitial Media: Digital content generation software. Audio Video editing, generation, software. Research into new type s of devices...who could believe in a camera and mobile merger few years back. Create foundation for new hardware and stay ahead in creating software for it. 2. Mobile telephony services: SMS, MMS, ringtones. This business are growing...people are paying for content. Make software for content generation in bigway. 3. Games: Big business. Put in money for research to make cheaper devices. Hand held devices need better gaming software, developement platform...none I remember know. 4. CRM software: there a hype sometime back, but where are the products know? Call Centers as I know use custom software mostly. Cater this services based industry with new/better/Streamlined product... 5. Industrial automation software: more and more automation is happening in the 3rd world. Make products for them. Any industrial product testing software. 6. Television: More Set top boxes like products, Interactive TV is going to come. 7. Process Compliance testing: Help manufacturing companies to get process compliant. There are so many ISO process activities, make software for helping companies achieve compliance to these. 8. Teaching: Teaching software is still not to the level it should be. Tie up with educational publishers and generate content which will have internation appeal. 9. Banking software: Banking is a big business, get into it in big way. 10. Embedded Software: yeah WinCE, windows Mobile are there already but what about other embedded devices....we need a speed up here. Create a hype for WinCE the way they are doing for Longhorn. No where do I intend to say that Microsoft should get into services. Microsoft is a products based company and should stay one. Make products to serve the services industry and penetrate their networks, as they grow you grow alongwith them. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | ---'As a consequence there now can be parasites that ride on the defacto standard, that don't have to pay towards the creators of that standard. '---- You mean parasites like Microsoft? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | 'You mean parasites like Microsoft?' Whoever. As soon as you create a stable 'open' fixpoint it can become the target for commoditization. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Jim Rankin | '8. Teaching: Teaching software is still not to the level it should be. Tie up with educational publishers and generate content which will have internation appeal.' No money. '9. Banking software: Banking is a big business, get into it in big way.' The whole point of the finance business is having some proprietary knowledge that your competitors don't. So software in banking means developing tightly controlled, custom software that you own and your competitors don't. By definition, you can't commoditize this. Also, I believe MS is also in all of the businesses you list in some capacity. There's really no where left for them to go. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Jim Rankin | 'Also, I believe MS is also in all of the businesses you list in some capacity.' ...except for maybe ISO compliance and industrial automation (sorry, should have read more closely). |
| Sun 06 Jun | emacsdude | If I were Microsoft, I would do the following. Perhaps they are already doing this... 1) Push hard to enter the consumer electronics space as a long term business strategy. They could dominate by building a console platform that did -- DVD playback, Tivo, MP3 playback, Digital Photo management, Games, Email, Web and other information services. When HDTV reaches critical mass, they could make that the display of choice for home computing. They should focus on reliability and ease of use. This is what Xbox2 should be. They could make tons of money selling their software and internet services on this platform. Watch out Sony. 2) Figure out how to sell software services and move to a subscription based revenue model or a per-compute-task done revenue model. Office, email client and web browser applications are already commodities. Move up the food chain to sell services and/or information. Ebay sells their auction service, and Google indirectly sells information. Surely there are more survivable ideas from the dot-com bust other than auctions, search, webmail and web-store-fronts. 3) Access to information is the killer app - servers, database technology and networking are the components that make this work. Push hard to develop leading edge software in all of these components to deliver information to the user easily and reliably. 4) Innovate! Increase the R&D budget for MS-Research every year. You never know what the next thing is going to be. |
| using opaque primary keys in data model | Thu 03 Jun | AMS |
| I sometimes encounter databases where every table has an ID column that is what I call opaque -- i.e. it has no real world meaning, its just a pointer to that row in the table. From what I know of the relational model, primary keys should be based on actual attributes, not some made-up meaningless value. On the other hand the pointer approach can offer certain conveniences. I felt rather sure I could find this discussed somewhere here in this forum, but it did not pop up near the top of any of my searches. Do others see this practice a lot? Can anyone point me to any lucid discussion of this issue, or just share his opinion? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Christopher Wells | > ... just share his opinion? I think they're useful. Joe Celko thinks they suck. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Ryan | Another view is that primary keys should *never* correspond to data in the real world. That's because real-world data tends to change, more often than you'd think. And when the real-world data changes, you start to have to update a bunch of related tables, or stick with the old (incorrect) data. For example, you might feel safe using ISO codes to represent countries. But what happens when Zaire (ZR) changes its name to Congo (CD)? You'll either have to do many cascaded updates across your related tables, or continue to use ZR even though it's no longer valid. The same types of problems happen for many other kinds of real-world values: usernames, email addresses, telephone numbers, or social security numbers. They may not be permanent, and they may not even be unique in the long-run. For these reasons I've found it best to use some type of arbitrary unique value as a primary key, either GUIDs or auto-incrementing numbers. Then you can set up the 'real world' values as an alternate key (unique index). This way, your application's users can modify those values when needed, without impacting the rest of the database. |
| Thu 03 Jun | DBA | 'primary keys should be based on actual attributes' Where did you learn that? It is actually a bad practice because actual attributes DO change. |
| Thu 03 Jun | yet another anon | I almost always use "opaque" ID's, unless it's something that's unlikely to ever change, such as an employee ID #. Why does Celko think they suck? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Almost Anonymous | 'From what I know of the relational model, primary keys should be based on actual attributes, not some made-up meaningless value.' I believe Codd, when he formalized the relational model, intended the primary key to be meaningless. In the early days, the use of 'real' values for primary keys was mostly just a size optimization. There are many many reasons not to use actual data attributes for primary keys. All the points that Ryan makes are valid -- data attributes change, your primary key shouldn't. In unversity, it was drilled into our heads constantly. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Christopher Wells | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=celko+%22artificial+key%22&btnG=Search |
| Thu 03 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | I think that what you're calling opaque keys are called surrogate keys. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MR | The relational model merely requires a key -- any key will do. So, there's no reason why you can't use 'meaningless' keys -- it depends on how you want to model it. The point of using a country abbreviation as a key is an example of the choice of simplicity over familiarity. The most simple is the integer, but the most familiar might be country name or abbreviation. There are pros and cons to each and ultimately the decision is left to the modeler as dictated by the circumstances. Strictly using one over the other without consideration of the model is a hallmark of a poor design (and designer). |
| Thu 03 Jun | Tool | One could argue that any table using a surrogate primary key by definition cannot be in 3rd normal form. This is because the table's columns are truly dependent on the natural key (the column others are recommending you put a unique contstraint on) not the actual primary key (some arbitrary number or guid). I'm interested to hear what others think about this? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Tool | Actually make that 2nd normal form... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Almost Anonymous | I think it would still be in 3rd (or 2nd) normal form -- the key difference (no pun intended) is that there is a one-to-one relationship between the artifical key and the natural key. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John C. | What alternative does Celko propose? I mean, if you want to do something straightforward like track a doctor's patients, you have to come up with a unique ID somehow, and there's not likely anything extrinsic that you can use (names are obviously not unique, etc.)... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Christopher Wells | Celko wasn't able to convince me. It was years ago that I discussed it with him, when I was learning/using SQL for the first time. Therefore I'm sure that I wouldn't be able to do his argument justice. You might find out more about his reasoning by searching the Web and/or Usenet and/or his books for Celko+"artificial key". |
| Thu 03 Jun | AMS | 'Where did you learn that?' It's a recollection from a course in relational modeling. The argument being that if an entity does not have a natural unique identifer (potentially a composite of several attributes) then it is incompletely modeled. Perhaps it's one of those academic purist ideas that often fails in the real world, where it is not always possible (or perhaps just not always practical) to identify a unique, immutable natural key, for many of the reasons discussed here. 'It is actually a bad practice because actual attributes DO change. ' Yep, I remember a case where gender was part of the primary key on a table and everything worked fine for a long time until someone's gender changed. Thanks for the discussion. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MR | AMS, 'It's a recollection from a course in relational modeling.' 'Perhaps it's one of those academic purist ideas...' Just to let you know -- as I said it has nothing to do with the RM. Your instructor must have either misinterpreted the relational model or (most likely) had no clue what he/she was talking about. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Almost Anonymous | 'The argument being that if an entity does not have a natural unique identifer (potentially a composite of several attributes) then it is incompletely modeled.' I can somewhat agree with this (although I can think of a few exceptons). For a person table, it's probably not completely modeled if you just have first/last name (people can have the same name. Maybe if you add SSN number in there then it's reasonably unique. However, you wouldn't have to have a primary key made up of first name, last name, and SSN -- that's horribly ugly. (SSN numbers are not unique so you cannot use those alone) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | The only thing that matters in *RELATIONAL* databases is...RELATIONS! The arbitrary data you decide to associate with these relationships/objects is up to you! In a perfect world, where humans were better at associating things with numbers, you would have no need for this "natural" arbitrary data! |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | A few months ago I read an article advocating the use of 'natural keys': http://sqlteam.com/item.asp?ItemID=2599 It generated quite a bit of discussion in the 'Comments' section; there was even an appearance by Ron Soukup, who corrected the incorrect impression left by the article about his own views on the subject. Some of the commentary is juvenile. But on page 3 a guy going by 'quazibubble' posted a long series of posts explaining why random, meaningless primary keys should be used instead of 'natural' ones. It's very thorough (albeit a bit manic) and worth spending the time to read. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John C. | Even if it weren't awkward, Name+SSN wouldn't work well. In the general case, an SSN is not guaranteed to be present at all. And not only are people's names far from unique, they're far from immutable. In fact, there's very little about a person that I would feel comfortable characterizing as truly immutable (date of birth possibly being an exception, although I bet there are even cases where that's malleable). |
| Thu 03 Jun | DataMiner | Joe Celko's articles: http://www.intelligententerprise.com/030320/605celko1_1.jhtml http://www.intelligententerprise.com/030810/613celko1_1.jhtml http://www.intelligententerprise.com/authors/last_name.jhtml?author_id=1328&lname=Celko&fname=Joe |
| Thu 03 Jun | Simon Lucy | I use unique keys that may, or may not have some external representation. For instance an Order does not need two unique keys, the order number and a unique key to identify it. Similarly an order line doesn't need anything more to tie it to the order than a foreign key for order number. For those entities that don't have some external unique referent I'll create the keys in the usual counter type way but I'll include a prefix which is unique to that table. This is not necessary, it does nothing to improve the validation of data, its purely for my own use. If you've ever had to play the electronic equivalent of pick up sticks you'll thank whoever did the same thing so you can pattern match grids of data and understand the connections. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MilesArcher | I can't think of a reason for someone's birthdate to change, but needing to change a DOB in the database due to data entry error is likely. |
| Thu 03 Jun | matt | I'd hazard a guess that most RDBMs are optimised to work best/fastest with numeric primary keys anyhow? I mean, comparing two numeric keys when doing a join has got to be faster than comparing strings? I don't buy the argument, anyway. Perhaps it would be a teensy bit more elegant if we could avoid 'artificial' keys. but really, they don't do any harm, and are damn useful, being pretty much guaranteed never to need changing, whereas it can be pretty hard to come up with other unique/immutable keys derived from the actual data. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Argh!!! The only thing "artificial" is the data that is associated with the "surrogate" key! The numeric primary key is the most "elegant" since, again in a perfect world, your database would consist entirely of non-string data! |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | I have to say, I've never used real data for a PK/FK, not even when the data is defined solely by the system. Recently I've even gotten away from using auto-incrementing integers and switched to GUID's (since they can be generated anywhere, not just on the server). Also, I pretty much work under the assumption that no table in my DB is ever 'completely modeled.' There is an infinite amount of data you could collect about a 'person' object, and pretty much none of it is guarenteed to be 100% unique. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | One more thought for the pro-generic-id cause, since it's the end of the day and I'm just killing time before I get to go home :) If I give the user a grid containing data that partially represents a table (ie, there are more columns and relations than they get in the quick-view grid), and they select an item to drill down into it, it's much more convenient and efficient to pull the complete data set by querying the artificial PK. The code ends up being much cleaner, since the simpler query didn't require the app to know as much about the DB. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Philo | BTW, another way that real life may interfere with academic purity - using an artificial PK for a person table will help insulate against privacy concerns - 'Patient #12345234' is nice and anonymous. Regarding the idea that 'if you don't have a unique value, you haven't modeled it completely' - that's pedantic rubbish. We've already gone over the difficulties with people - maybe a DNA map would be a good PK? (Unless you have twins...) How about vehicles? The VIN is *guaranteed* to be unique. Unless a chop shop forges them... MAC addresses? Fine, except that many modern routers allow you to set the MAC address. Oops. It just doesn't work - anything people can screw with, they *will* screw with. So an artificial numeric PK is just safer. Philo |
| Thu 03 Jun | Troy King | Two observations based on 13 years of designing and maintaining relational databases: 1. Surrogate keys are way easier to deal with in the long run. When you don't use surrogate keys, and force yourself to use the natural keys, you wind up with joins that can sometimes require three or four (or more) fields to link two tables. In one db I worked on, four commonly joined tables resulted in 13 fields for the joins. I know about views; that's not the point. At least with surrogate keys, you can make the joins easier, i.e. ID to ID. When you think ahead and name the ID fields the same thing, you can type out the joins with hardly any thought involved. 2. Auto-incremented surrogate keys are the devil. When you use auto-incremented surrogate keys, like IDENTITY fields in MS-Sql, you're in for a world of hurt if something happens to your DB and you have to tie child-tables back to the rows in the original table, but now those rows have changed IDs thanks to awful RESTORE or data-copying restrictions on IDENTITY columns. I know this is easier to deal with now (SET IDENTITY INSERT ON with bulk loads since v6 or so), but it wasn't always. The greatest thing MS-Sql 2000 added to work around this issue was GUID columns with the NEWID() function. They make nice, mindless ID columns that are still easy to manage. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | Those of you that use GUIDs: I've read that GUIDs can give worse performance than int autoincrementing IDs. I'm curious what your real-world experience has been. Have you done any comparison? Do your joins feel slower? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | I'd imagine GUIDs are less performant than int's, since there's that much more data to compare. But the question is, what are your priorities? Does it matter if your join takes 125ms vs 175ms? Can you negate that by throwing a slightly faster processor at the DB server? Not quoting real numbers here, just saying... For me, the advantages GUIDs offer are more important, since I write mostly line-of-business apps that manage a lot of records, but rarely if ever need to support more than 10 users running queries at the exact same time. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Christopher Wells | Aren't GUIDs useful, when you eventually need to combine data that was generated by more than one database/server installation? Doing this (merging data from more than one DB) using an artifical key that isn't a GUID, you would need to change your "int recordid" keys to "int serverid"+"int recordid". |
| Fri 04 Jun | Will | > I can't think of a reason for someone's birthdate to change My wife's birthdate changed. She had no birth certificate (born during a short war in a 3rd world country). When she immigrated to the US, 3 official documents all had different birthdates (2 or 3 days apart). We'd pick one every year and celebrate it. (When she was annoyed she'd accuse me of picking the one that was most convenient around my busy work schedule). We ignored this for years. At one point she was denied a driver's license due to the mismatch on the IDs, but we just got the license somewhere else. After she was naturalized the IRS demanded we clean this up, so we got the social security card & drivers license changed to match the passport. I think that's the actual date too, but I never can remember it exactly. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | Will, it's funny, your wife's situation is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. It seemed at first glance that birthdate was the single attribute of people that was guaranteed to be defined at 'the point of manufacture' (like a VIN or UPC)... then I realized I had a friend whose birthdate might not be immutable. He was born in Korea and immigrated to the U.S. as a child, and apparently when he was naturalized the authorities here got his birthdate wrong. I don't think he's ever gotten around to having it corrected (probably much more trouble than it's worth). But I think your wife's story is even cooler. I'm surprised you didn't 'get' to celebrate three times every year ;-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | DataMiner | >My wife's birthdate changed. < No, she was born only once, but her officially-recorded date of birth changed. This may seem like nit-picking, but it is exactly the point of discussions about 'natural keys'. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | I find the misuse of GUIDs as record keys unfathomable. Why have an enormous key which is going to be the largest single field, other than free text which wouldn't be used as a key. For systems with rapid transactions the differences between the GUIDs is going to be 1 or 2 digits, all for the sake of psuedo-randomness. Reduce your keys to some reasonable population size, why leak performance when its unnecessary? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | Oh the point about merging data from different servers is well taken. I solve that with a single character out of the prefix for the key for data that needs to be preserved as to which server it was created on. That gives me 36 databases without getting into non-alpha characters. As for the equivalent efficiency of numerical (binary) over alphanumeric keys. Its all bits. Using only numerical (as in ints, longs, double words) will give the same span of data for a wider alphanumeric key but will not be human readable in any sense. I've had to fix too many sets of data, for a variety of reasons, to ever want to use binary keys. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Troy King | Simon L said: Reduce your keys to some reasonable population size, why leak performance when its unnecessary? I'll pit my database's performance against anyone's on five times the equipment. I have two PII servers that see 2 TB of data per week with 100% churn, and a Quad PIII that sees 6TB per week with 80% churn. None of them average over 20% CPU. The one serious skill I have is SQL Server performance. A coworker and I designed and maintain a database that runs 24/7 and provides services to 1.7 million distinct users, with half a million of them active at any given time (with sessions averaging 7.5 hours). We did this with off-the-shelf hardware and software. After spending 3 weeks doing extensive SQL Server performance tests, I found that varchars under 70 characters are faster than ints for all key searches used in my databases. I challenge everyone to do their own tests. It was a shock to me to find them faster, because it certainly goes against 'common knowlege'. This was a very detailed test, covering lots of situations, using real data numbering in the millions of rows. (I did also test smaller table sizes). In addition, the 36 characters for the GUID isn't that big, and the selectivity is ideal (which is the purpose of the key anway, of course). I pay very close attention to row and page sizes to make sure I'm not wasting time and effort with bad design decisions. I test before and after attempts at improvement. The query design and physical data placement (and many other things) affect performance far more than choice of a single column (within reasonable limits). In addition, I research the hell out of my data when making a decision. Example: What is the correct size and type for a first name field? An email address? A url? When choosing the type for a given usage pattern, is the CPU time saved looking up fixed-width offsets rather than variable offsets (i.e. char vs varchar) undone by the additional disk I/O and network transmission for all those spaces? I made a list of about 80 questions like this when doing my research and did lots of tests to find out. On a daily basis, I fight more more for my own coding and maintenance convenience and performance. GUIDs and NEWID() save me quite a bit of time and effort, and do not impact the performance of my databases. |
| Sat 05 Jun | matt | That's interesting, any idea as to why the character based keys were faster? on the face of it I can't think of any reason why they would be, apart from the case for numeric/binary keys just being very poorly optimised? Those really long GUID type fields tend to annoy me, although I can where they're useful, for the relatively small database tables I'm dealing with I'd far rather be able to look something up easily by an ID number of 1523, than some 32 character hexadecimal string or whatever. Especially if you're going to present the ID to the user in any way, say as a quick reference to bring up that record again. Also which looks better http://site.com/article/1234/about_foo http://site.com/article/32AC-143D-FFE6-0234-DE46-AC5D I hate web apps *cough* coldfusion *cough* that throw those kind of IDs around all the time. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Troy King | Matt, I've got tables where I'd have overflowed regular int columns by now with an autonumber field (if autonumbers didn't present other problems already mentioned). I don't actually keep 2 billion+ rows in a given table, but some tables have had more rows that that go through them. As for presenting it to the user, I'd never make them have to know or pay attention to a GUID. Surrogate keys are for housekeeping purposes... what I give to the user may use a GUID one way or the other, but I'd certainly never make them type it in or have to look at it. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Troy King | Matt, it just occurred to me your question is a red herring. You said 'which looks better', and showed the urls http://site.com/article/1234/about_foo http://site.com/article/32AC-143D-FFE6-0234-DE46-AC5D It doesn't matter which looks better. The correct link would be one with descriptive text. The url is an implementation detail. A link should tell where you're about to navigate, so it doesn't matter what the url itself is and whether it contains a guid or not. |
| Sun 06 Jun | Will | Dataminer (says my wife's birthdate didn't change): Eh - I guess it's semantics. Sure, the day she was born (as some absolute truth) was always the same. But the database field 'birthdate' was recorded differently in multiple databases and was eventually modified. Incidentally, we also had a similar situation with the last name (a common Arabic name which was spelled differently on different IDs) The INS got to be the arbiter of this one when the passport was issued. Here there was definitely no right answer as they were all legimitate transliterations. My point is that recorded knowledge of almost every type is subject to change in special situations. |
| The demise of the MDI interface? | Wed 02 Jun | Albert D. Kallal |
| In all the years that windows has been out, since about 3.1…the midi interface has generally been the standard. MDI = Multiple Document Interface. Then, after the Millennium…products like office begin to dump the midi. As a rule, you can still configure office to run as mdi (for example, in word, you can go tools->options->view tab, and un-check windows in task bar (but this is NOT the default) I have always kind of liked the MDI interface. but we seem to be going away from this. It has always seemed like a good idea to group child windows with their parent application. It is really easier to use windows when child windows are not grouped by application? Is the trend away from MDI due to windows users being more educated?, or perhaps window users being more dumb? As developers…do you like MIDI..and do you design with MIDI in mind? Any studies on GUI’s that hint that I should continue to design with mdi in mind? (it seems everyone is now breaking the rules of MDI). Albert D. Kallal Edmonton, Alberta Canada kallal@msn.com http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn |
| Wed 02 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | 'MIDI' is an electronic musical instrument spec (Musical Instrument Digital Interface, I would guess). I wrote a MIDI Sequencer application for the Sinclair Spectrum in the 1980's. I like MDI apps, but I believe that the worry is that User are 'dumb' so they lose documents that are obscured by other windows and try to open them again, or in the worse case, assume they've been lost and start typing them again. I guess that was the motivation (one of many) for the Task bar and Start button from Win95 onwards. Interestingly, MS didn't eat their own dogfood with Office. They faked the MDI interface using their own custom code in the apps, rather than using the MDI built into windows. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Roose | I don't like MDI -- managing the windows is a pain and you can never use your full screen real estate. The way the MDI windows get docked at the bottom is terrible. I like the VS.NET way better -- except that it is a royal pain to try to move windows where you want them. I think they are fixing that in the next version of VS.NET. The crappy part is that Microsoft doesn't release its controls so most people would have to undergo tremendous effort in order to have this new window system. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | I really dislike MDI. Why constrain your documents to a box just beause they happen to share some editor code? If I am working on project A it might involve 2 word documents, an Excel workbook, a Powerpoint file, a Visio drawing and a VS.NET instance. At the same time I can have 3 Word file open for project B. Why on earth woud I want the project B files bunched up with the project A files, just because they happen to be Word files? I fail to see why releting items based on application is meaningful in a domain sense more than any other criterium. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Dan Maas | I think a "tabbed windows" interface (like Mozilla's tabbed browsing) gets you the main advantage of MDI (i.e. not having a zillion tiny windows for related documents) without the drawback of clumsy window management. Consider it user-interface evolution in progress... |
| Wed 02 Jun | Matthew Lock | Trouble with MDI is that you cannot have a document open on each screen in a multi monitor setup. Also in XP the "group similar taskbar buttons" setting keeps all the document of the same application together for you. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Christopher Wells | Something like Word seems to have only a single child window (the document), which makes it easy to understand. I remember someone having trouble learning the 3 different panes that you find in Outlook Express. Or are you talking about, for example, if I'm editing several documents, then is this presented as several documents in several MDI children of one Word application, or as several word applications each with one SDI? The task bar is something else that's too difficult for some people people to learn (it's an O/S feature, not an application feature). Personally my first introduction to MDI was the pre-Win95 FileManager in Windows 3.1 and NT 3.5: I prefered it to the later Explorer, because with two tiled MDI children it was easy to drag-and-drop files from one window (one folder) to another without scrolling. However, a usability problem with that (apart from the fact that 'many' may be more complicated than 'one') is that MDI child windows could be stacked, and hidden one behind another. Splitter bars (all child windows on one plane, more two-dimensional than three, for example as in Outlook Express) seems better than File Manager with optional tiling in that regard. The UI we're writing now is MDI: different forms for different types of data (but not different forms for different instances of data), and we're borrowing from VS.NET the idea of forms like the 'project window' (i.e. forms which dock on one side, which can auto-hide or which you can pin). |
| Wed 02 Jun | Steven | there never was mdi on the macintosh and i prefer that. sdi (single document interface) let's you focus on your documents and not on the software. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Simon Lucy | There's a difference between the Mac's SDI (take over the whole damn screen including the menu bar), and Windows. Different to the degree that I always feel like I'm running without a parachute. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | I think its true that there is an evolution, from SDI to MDI to VS.NET (via VB's 20 floating windows - yuk). Clearly, some application types are best suited to particular designs, although MDI does seem to be going out of fashion now. I still like MDI for Office documents, but love the latest VS.NET IDE, where you can arrange all the windows just as you like them. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Philo | BTW, my understanding is that MS moved away from MDI because of the volume of support calls they got caused by MDI (losing windows, closing Word instead of closing a single document, etc) Philo |
| Wed 02 Jun | Gwyn | I used to like MDI but since I tried creating a complex app using it I've gone way off it. Why? Because you can only have a single modal dialog (or chain of modal dialogs). Take SQL Server Enterprise Manager (an MDI app). When you go to edit a table design it comes up in a modal. Now I need to go and look at the detail of another table. Too bad. You've got to close the modal one first. This is a royal PITA. And Enterprise Manager is such a classic example of why you'd want to use MDI. It suits apps which either have no modal requirements or only have application-wide modal requirements. And actually there are not a great deal of apps where you want to keep everything together (suggesting mdi) that only have application-wide modal requirements. The model basically stinks. I went through a lot of pain late last year and earlier this year trying to make a multiple modal window framework but it cannot satisfactorily be done, because of the way Windows natively works. Because a modal effectively pauses in the middle of a function to create a multi-modal framework you have to start heavily multi-threading the presentation layer and this is really quite yucky. I did a lot of prototyping and in the end I realised that trying to do it is just trying to go against how Windows is architected and it's just not worth it. You either have to put up with the original Windows design or bodge your own. Either way it's a choice between 2 flavours of shit. So in the end I gave up and designed the app in a non-MDI fashion. Going with the flow. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Wayne | >>When you go to edit a table design it comes up in a modal... In my version of Enterprise Manager, the table editor comes up as a child window. The table properties dialog comes up as a modal dialog, but you can't do anything in that dialog anyway except for look at the table meta-data and modify permissions. Anyway, I prefer MDI apps. I think that VS.Net and Mozilla are good examples because they let you have the best of both worlds: Another instance of the program open (You can have a single instance per document if you want) and you can still group windows inside each instance without cluttering up the taskbar and the Alt-Tab task switcher. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Bored Bystander | It took a geek bulletin board to remind me of this; I never really noticed. ;-) Yes, MDI is so '1992'. I recall helping a user in my office building who 'lost' one of his MDI based Word sessions. He was quite aggravated and couldn't really grasp that the windows nested inside a larger window. Actually got hostile with me when I tried to show him that MAYBE he was lacking some knowledge... Pre-Windows 95, there was simply no good, obvious place to put minimized applications (no task bar), so MDI was a kluge to make applications self contained. Making the sessions explicit on the Windows task is probably much easier for users to understand. I think a 'problem' with MDI is the idea of multiple sessions within an application. It's an abstraction. My engineer's soul likes things like MDI. Most people have no clue. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Gwyn | You're right wayne. Just checked. Editing the indexes is the main one that always gets my goat. But there are many other occasions too |
| Wed 02 Jun | Keith Wright | I always seemed to have some problem with Excel (and oddly only excel) where I would only mean to close one document, but ended up closing them all. And when it said 'Do you want to save the changes in 'Sheet1'' I always assumed it was talking about the scratch workbook I meant to close, and not the timesheet I had open in the background that I'd spent the last 30 minutes putting together. So I'm not friends with MDI. But if there are tabs, I think MDI is fine. You also kinda need MDI if you are looking at a bunch of different views of the same thing. I hate the interfaces(popular at one time on macs) where you have toolbars docked all over the desktop. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Stephen Jones | I often have two or three Word document open at the same time.and cut and paste from one to the other. There are very few times I would want two Word documents open simultaneously and not be able to display them side by side. Now with a web browser I prefer the tabbed interface but that is because most of the time I am just reading. Moreover I nornally open a site at the hmepage, and then click on a dozen links so they load in the background. |
| Wed 02 Jun | MikeMcNertney | My understanding is that MS moved away from MDI because it did not fit the users' mental model of how things should work. Remember that an interface that agrees with a user's mental model is automatically going to be more usable. People associate documents with windows. They don't understand why the two documents they open are together in the same window even thought hey are unrelated. The fact that both are opened using Word is irrelevant. Besides that, I think there has always been some disagreement as to whether MDI was actually better in any significant way. Now with the taskbar grouping, it is less important to reduce the number of windows (which seemed to be the main benefit of MDI), allowing MS to get rid of the interface confusion that has plagued these products. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Hank | Albert, I think your swayed by all the Access dev you do. Personally I don't like an app to open windows to hell and back. Maybe it's time for this to die. Users don't seem to grasp it either. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Benji Smith | Interesting. I love MDI interfaces. I especially like the MDI of TextPad, which not only provides window-arranging features (maximize, cascade, tile, etc.) but it also provides a document selector (a listbox with a list of all open documents). I like using ALT-TAB to switch between applications and CONTROL-TAB to switch between documents within the same application. I HATE the taskbar grouping features of WinXP. Now, the individual documents are obscured, and the only way I can get to them is with an extra mouse click. Either that, or I have to ALT-TAB through all of my windows. Even if I only have one Word document open, I have to ALT-TAB through all twenty IE windows. I think it's an unnecessary pain in the ass. |
| Wed 02 Jun | fool for python | As a card carrying member of the anti-window-proliferation league, I can't stand MDIs. Oh wait...I love tabbed browsing. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Albert D. Kallal | Man…good comments here!
Yes, the user “mental” model I think is likely one big winning answer here!
You got two word documents open..why should they be locked up in a single window cage? This is certainly is a source of confusing for the end user.
I asked this question, since we did for about 10 years have this interface..but as a whole we are moving away from it.
The other observation about the fact that we “now” have a task bar is also a real big issue (for two reasons..users learned to use the task bar..and also we did NOT have one before win95..so both arguments weigh heavy as to not needing MDI anymore).
I think the real answer here is it depends!
In other words, for user document type stuff like word, or Excel…MDI makes little sense. However, for some IDE’s, and applications where in fact the windows DO belong to together then of course MDI makes sense. It is just as bad to have to go hunting for child windows in a IDE as it is bad to tie a bunch of word documents into one window.
The other great point made here was concerning model forms. Of course, with model forms, you desire the user to either close the form to return where one came from…or move further down into additional forms. With MDI, model forms work well, but seem really strange with SDI.
Of course, the “windows in task bar” is a configurable option in most office programs (tools->options->view tab->[x] windows in taskbar option.
So, now..what becomes the development standard?
Does one develop to both standards?
In ms-access, this gets really strange…as since you can now have each form show up in the task bar, but if you make each form model (to accomplish a given task), you get windows in the task bar..but they can NOT be selected.
Nothing is worse then a user clicking on a item in the task bar..and nothing happens!
So, my startup code now turns off the windows in task bar option!
I guess I have to wait until ms-access gets the .net winforms that can be imported into the .net IDE to further enhance the forms that access builds!
|
| Thu 03 Jun | Stephen Jones | Albert, modAl not modEl. |
| Fri 04 Jun | UI idiot | I'll 'me too' the question as well. SDI seems fine for things like word and excel but for database applications, you HAVE to use modal boxes, but SDI doesn't lend itself to this. At the same time, MDI suits this but the battle is for screen space. You end up with windows that you cannot fit everything on to. How is the VS.NET interface achieved? Is it just SDI with tab pages and docked windows? |
| Sun 06 Jun | Christopher Wells | > Is it just SDI with tab pages and docked windows? I think that all the forms are MDI children. For example, each dockable window is an MDI form (when it's not docked, then it can float on top of other forms). |
| Lazy man seeks simple spec. | Sat 05 Jun | Davey Neilson |
| We are considering converting our application to conform to the Windows look, ie: File, Edit, View etc. Familiar icons, standardised OK and Cancel buttons... the MS BIG-mac with extra fries please ! Trouble is im just damn lazy and want to avoid trolling through 300+ page books on how to design a GUI, and then drafting a lengthy report/spec. Does anyone have a short (20 page or so) summary of the main requirements of a MS style GUI, preferably with lots of pictures (less reading to do!) Any labour saving suggestions welcomed. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | 300 pages is nothing. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Davey Neilson | Mr GPJ's - my heartfelt thanks for your kind offer, when can you start reading ? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Simon Lucy | Hire someone for the project to assist you. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | I thought you had some specific book in mind. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Bored Bystander | Uh... the easiest thing to do is .... just do it. If you try to find texts about user interface guidelines, you will surely descend into the pits of a recursively defined software hell populated by pompous academics. Given your requirements, the best style guide is probably something like the 'scribble' sample application that exists in every serious Microsoft development language. There's nothing sacred about the Windows application standard except that users expect Windows applications to have named things in certain places. Then there's Joel's 'User Interface Design for Programmers' book, but I think you want something more literal and basic. Scribble is what you're looking for. Lastly: around 1990 a standard called CUA, 'Common User Access', was the PHB flavored attempt to impose standards on developers. If you want a formal definition, CUA is probably the place to look. But I bet that Windows look and feel have drifted substantially away from CUA... |
| Sat 05 Jun | _ | http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/appxb.asp |
| Sat 05 Jun | Albert D. Kallal | Actually, it is often amazing as to why someone would use a standard windows menu bar etc. Even to further this issue, how ARE you, and WHY should you lay some things out in a particular way? The answer …familiarly…. As most said here…just do it. Hence model the behavior after the MOST popular software you can find. I have some comments on this very concept here: http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn/Articles/UseAbility/UserFriendly.htm The above also has some screen shots of some menu bars in windows that I made...again based on everything else! Albert D. Kallal Edmonton, Alberta Canada kallal@msn.com http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn |
| Sat 05 Jun | Stephen Jones | I like 'Developing User Interfaces for Microsoft Windows' by Everett McKay - Microsoft Press - ISBN 0-7356-0586-0 It's about 600 pages but with big print and lots of diagrams. There's also a 30 page version on the net; it comes in the '30 page series' which also has titles on Brain Surgery and Bridge Design. |
| Deep thought for a Friday evening. | Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) |
| For C++ programmers. What if a Windows LOGFONT http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/gdi/fontext_1wmq.asp were defined as a boost::tuple? http://www.boost.org/libs/tuple/doc/tuple_users_guide.html Is this a good application of tuple or bad? |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Boost tuples are useful for writing generic functions, but using them just to redefine an existing structure is a little silly. What would be the purpose? Yes C++'s type system is a bit screwy, and there are a lot of things that you ought to be able to do with eg: analyzing your structures and such, but unless you've got some particular need in mind, specifying a LOGFONT as a tuple would be overkill (that's not the right time to insist on a more generic type system). |
| Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | How about to define a structure of the complexity of LOGFONT? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Cubist | That's not complex... structures of structures of unions would be complex. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Tom | It wouldn't be very good. You'd lose the member names. |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | It's not about defining complex structures, it's about generic programming (ie: generating structures). The LOGFONT structure is fixed, what benefit do you see in representing it as a boost tuple?
template |
| Sat 05 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | > It wouldn't be very good. You'd lose the member names. Ahh that's my point. There is a serious limitation I think in tuples is that the names of the members are lost. The names are important. It is self documenting. I understand it is about generic programming but if a function is defined to take a tuple real data is eventually going to have to be passed to that tuple. Maybe tuples make more sense as a return value? |
| MYSQL in trouble | Fri 04 Jun | anon |
| When someone comes to bite half your ass off, pretend that it does not matter and you actually welcome them taking an interest in it. Their days of high growth will not continue- at the best. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1606451,00.asp |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mike | You are mistaken. Almost every rebms is superior in features. You know my MySQL is not in trouble. Cause it's fast, damn fast and works very well with PHP. Different horses for different courses. MySQL and Ingres are not competitors. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eric Debois | Old news. MySQL has always lived more on community support than anything else. Postgress and firebird has been out there for a long time but that doesnt seem to affect MySQL. Remember MySQL is quite a small company with modest needs in terms of revenue. They dont have to rule the world. |
| Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | Let me get right to porting my database to some dead CA pile ol' junk. Sounds like a great way to blow some corporate cash. |
| Fri 04 Jun | flamebait sr. | Bah. Everybody knows that IMS is coming back and will whip *everybody*, once IBM open sources it. ;) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Arnie | Is MySQL profitably yet or are they still burning VC cash? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Egor | From what I know, they never were VC-funded. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wally | Who cares? Those of us who wanted a full-featured open-source RDBMS are already using Postgres. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Herbert Sitz | So CA open sources Ingres. MySQL already has the right to distribute GPL and sell commercial licenses to a similar heavy-weight database, SAP's former SAPdb (which MySQL has renamed to 'MaxDB'). And as others have said the MySQL namesake database itself is really in a somewhat different product category. You've got to wonder whether the author of that article did any homework at all. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | Postgres is the quiet achiever in open source. No marketing behind it, just a darn good RDBMS. Mysql is improving but it years of postgres. |
| Sat 05 Jun | matt | PostGreSQL is great. What I don't like, though, is that I rarely have a choice of using it for web dev projects, given that 99% of linux-based webhosting runs MySQL and not Postgresql. Bummer. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Green Pajamas | I think many webhosters support PostgreSQL. They just don't advertise it. |
| Sat 05 Jun | tapiwa | Green PJ is correct. A lot of hosting services do provide PostgreSQL. More typical on their higher end offerings. The postgresql site also has a list of the bigger PG hosts. I love PostgreSQL! |
| Sat 05 Jun | Herbert Sitz | The main thing holding PostgreSQL back has obviously been the lack of a native Windows version. I thought it was supposed to have been released by now, but apparently it's still in development: http://momjian.postgresql.org/main/writings/pgsql/project/win32.html One company has already made available a commercial port of PostgreSQL that is Win32 native: http://www.postgresql.org/news/195.html Until a year or two ago it seemed that MySQL and PostgreSQL were the 'open source database duo', but I think Firebird's growth in popularity has now changed that to make a trio of good open source databases. Firebird seems to me like perhaps the most balanced and desirable of the three: solid Windows and Linux versions, full-featured, license not as restrictive as MySQL's GPL. |
| Wireless broadband... real or hype? | Fri 04 Jun | Robert Jacobson |
| There were some news articles yesterday about Craig McGraw (of cellular telephone fame.) Hes investing in a company that plans to roll out service using the WiMax wireless broadband technology. (Technically, the IEEE 802.16 standard.) Details: http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1086278323.html On paper, this technology sounds almost too good to be true: * Provides wireless internet connections up to 50 kilometers away from the hotspot. (~30 miles.) * Provides bandwidth of 280 Mbps per base station. * Doesnt require a line-of-sight connection to the base station. (Unlike previous wireless broadband offerings.) http://www.wimaxforum.org/about/ If this pans out, it could compete with cable/DSL for connections at home, and also provide great mobile coverage -- like the old Ricochet wireless service (R.I.P.) No need to pay T-Mobile $30/month just to use WiFi at Starbucks, or pay for expensive and slow wireless connections over cell phone networks. Any thoughts about whether this technology is realistic and what it will mean for end-users? Im personally curious about how the service plans will shake out, and whether this will be a major drain on notebook battery life. Also, is there any hope for a D-Link home router (or equivalent) based on 802.16, or is this strictly a technology that the telcos can afford to roll out? If I could have a router at home sharing my broadband connection over a 20 mile radius, that would be very cool (and very dangerous economically for the telcos.) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Robert Jacobson | Bah... found one article concluding that it's 'years away' from reality: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/wimax/article.php/3363411 |
| Fri 04 Jun | dalenz | It is currently being used here in New Zealand, mainly in the rural areas. Will track down some more info. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Blues | I work for a French Telecom Operator and I can tell you management take Wifi and WifiMax very seriously as (future) competitive threats. Specially against UMTS (3G network). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Chris Ormerod | It is being used in Penrith (50KM from Sydney, AU - not really rural). The company that is doing it here was just using normal old Wireless access points on 802.11, last time I looked into it about a year ago before we could get ADSL, it was nearly $300/month for 1GB downloads at 4mbps and I am not sure they are still running it as I haven't seen it advertised for a while. But all the McDonalds in Sydney now have wireless access, so it sure isn't hype, just wether it is worth considering if you have other broadband options is another matter. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bah humbug | If you do the arithmetic on 280 Mbps bandwidth per base station, a 50 km radius coverage area, and assume (say) a 100 m pitch between subscribers, you end up with a sustained rate heading towards 35 bytes per second. You'd better hope that the take up is really poor. And if I remember rightly, that 280 Mbps is both way traffic, and would of course include handshaking and other protocol overhead. And then (I think) that dealing with multi-path reflections is still not perfect: it doesn't _have_ to be line of sight, but it sure works better the fewer obstacles in the way. Time will tell, but they probably need to do some social engineering (or economic engineering) to make sure the uptake is relatively poor, otherwise you'll get the cable-hog syndrome |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | A coworker is using it from Nextel, here in the Raleigh-Durham area. He gets up to 1mbit/sec, depending on where he is. At the office, about 550kbit/sec. Ground floor of his house, about 185kbit/sec. Top floor of his house is where he gets 1mbit/sec (apparently he lives behind a hill). From what I've read, it's using 4G OFDM encoding for speeds of 1.5mbit/sec, bursting to 3.0mbit/sec. The hardware is a PCCard with an external antenna that velcros to the lid of his laptop. He can also plug the antenna directly into the card, but then it interferes with his typing. Cost is around $50 per month, on top of his cellular service (pretty competitve with broadband, IOW). This may be being subsidized by the equipment providers, as the service is still somewhat in the trial stages. Read more at: http://www.nextelbroadband.com/ http://www.mobiletechnews.com/info/2004/02/07/152114.html |
| Sat 05 Jun | Robert Jacobson | Chris, there have been some U.S. cities that have experimented with regular WiFi (802.11b) technology for blanket broadband coverage. The latest one is Chaska, Minnesota, which is attempting to provide universal wireless broadband coverage for all of its residents: http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040526_161422.html The problem is that the range for WiFi is so limited -- usually just a few hundred feet. You'd need a WiFi access point almost on the top of every lamppost to have blanket coverage. The benefit of the WiMAX/802.11g spec is that you could do the same with just a few access points scattered across the city. (Although, as Bah Humbug notes, the 280 Mbps would get saturated rather quickly.) Blank, thanks for the info about the Nextell broadband. It's not using WiMAX, but it sounds like a compelling alternative. It's priced right, and sounds much better than other cell phone companies' wireless data plans. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Mr. Analogy | About 5 or 10 years ago, back when I was a telecom consulting engineer, there was a lot of talk about WIRELESS CABLE TV, called LMDS and MMDS. That's pretty high bandwidth (in the broadcast direction, anyway). Figure about 50 channels and maybe 5 Mhz per channel. That's ROUGHLY about 500 Mbits/second. (As I recall you get about 2 bits/ second per 1 hz of bandwidth). So.. the technology and spectrum exists to do such thing. It's viable from a physics standpoint, at least in terms of transmitting TO the customer. MORE ON MMDS/LMDS http://www.networkcomputing.com/netdesign/1225wireless33.html |
| IT is a great industry to work in | Fri 04 Jun | Herr Herr |
| In 2002 I got sick of working in IT, of building applications that got thrown away 6 months after completion because the clients IT management decided all internal apps had to be built in Foobar technology instead of Acme technology. My work seemed meaningless, stressful, and thankless. I thought I should go work in a bar or become a tour guide. I quit and went travelling for most of 2003. I travelled with a tour guide in Cuba for 2 weeks. I saw how dissatisfied he was with his job. Always on the move, no established friends, no chance for a stable relationship. I worked in a bar for a few weeks. Low paid, hard work, very tiring, and boring. I realised why students often do this work. Its work you do when you are not qualified to do anything else. At the end of this all I realised that IT is actually pretty damn good compared to other industries. High pay compared to other industries, even if pay levels are not what they were in 1999. Challenging work with some interesting things to do. Other a few years experience you have the option to work as a contractor and earn even more AND take long skiing holidays. |
| Fri 04 Jun | the artist formerly known as prince | thank you, I tried being an insurance agent for a year, same conclusion. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | The only thing that scares me about IT is that it hasn't stabilized yet. We saw the bubble during the 90's when it was cool to have on your cv versions of unix unto which Emacs hadn't been ported (inflicted?). Then we saw the crunch. During 2002 and 2003 nobody hired anybody and we saw the end of the world as we know it. Nick Carr and his article made me open my eyes and what I saw wasn't good. And now we're stabilizing. We're waiting to see what comes next. What the jobs of the future will be. We're waiting, that's all. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | When everyone else is waiting is the time to attack. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | The basic human condition is suffering, and people are often disatistifed whatever their situation - poor, rich, young, old, bartender, IT, flight attendant, winter, summer, day, night. Of course then there are things that people should be disatisfied with - during summers in school I'd work in a boiling hot and humid local factory. My job entailed putting a couple of pieces of fiberglass in some random car part (actually an air filter/dessicant for air conditioning systems), putting it on an unbelievably loud press and pressing two buttons to squeeze the parts together. Hour upon hour, day after day I would do this. Eventually I realized that life is too short to do something like that (and it is no surprize that there is high levels of substance abuse among workers in that `field') and quit (and then worked at a restaurant as a dish pig/pizza jockey which remains one of the most enjoyable jobs I've ever had, humorously enough). |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Just for kicks, how old are you and what other jobs do you have? |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | ...did you have... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | I've worked in various positions in the IT field since, and I love this field, but the carefree (because I was a teen. I'm not saying it'd be a good job for a 30 year old), constantly changing, socially rewarding family restaurant job I'll always look back upon fondly. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bored Bystander | I sympathize with Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey and his 'I hate this industry' post. I wonder if other lines of professional work have the same degree of frivolously 'playing' with the candidate that IT does. It seems to be an ordination from God that requires companies in our industry to flagrantly disregard basic ethics. It's as though they 'absolutely must' screw candidates around for some unstated higher purpose. 'Hey, we said you could start next Monday. Did you turn down ALL your other offers? Well.. you're NOT getting our job, for VERY good reasons and you should be glad that we don't need you. Good luck! We really hope you have to declare bankruptcy!' The problem is that all companies and recruiters in this field seem to be on a permanent ego trip. If you match their internal needs you're wonderful, you walk on water, you're great like they are, you're on the inside, and everyone who is on the outside is an asshole. Unless they don't need you, in which case you're human shit, you're disregardable, you're untalented, you didn't work hard in your past jobs, etc. And I won't even begin to describe what it's like to deal with the asshole recruiters and HR departments in this industry if you're over 40. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Steve-O | 'At the end of this all I realised that IT is actually pretty damn good compared to other industries. ' You're damn straight it is. I think you learned a valuable lesson in learning to keep things in their proper perspective and learn to appreciate when you have a good thing. Many people here seem to complain about everything: my coworker's music is too loud, my boss didn't say 'Hi' to me this morning, my coworkers won't recognize my genius talent, my latte is too cold, my coffee is too hot, my ergonomic chair is not comfy enough and so on and so on. I think the biggest complainers are people who have grown up in a nice cushy enviroment there whole lives (anglo, american, suburban types). Until you have worked in a manually grueling job, you just don't know how good you have it in IT. Try working in a factory. It's an oven in the summer time and an ice box in the winter. And you want to talk about the boss or co-workers not appreciating you enough. Working in a factory, you are going to be cussed out be some one at the end of each day. Or try working in the fields picking vegatables. That's some back breaking labor. Glad to see you finally realized how good you have it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Suck is relative, but indeed, there are attitudes from certain persons in this industry that if they simply disappeared, it would make everybody's life much more easy. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | Steve-O, you seem to be advocating a 'race to the bottom' mentality - 'someone else has it worse, so suck it'. If your environment can relatively easily be changed (a nicer chair, a coworker using headphones) then I'm damn glad people strive for it instead of 'knowing their place'. Hey that reminds me - I worked priming tobacco during the summers in grade 9 and 10 (I lived in an agricultural area). Unbelievably sucky job that was backbreaking labour from 6 in the morning until the sun went down at night, for $50 a day. That isn't a job I look back upon fondly. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | ---'I wonder if other lines of professional work have the same degree of frivolously 'playing' with the candidate that IT does.'----- The answer is yes, or worse. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Clay Dowling | Other fields definitely have it worse. A large national insurer that I worked for briefly would fire military reservists whose training schedule was inconvenient for the boss man. It's not only unpatriotic, it's blatantly illegal. A friend of the family whose job it is to arrange training and deployments told me that it's very common for reservists to be fired on manufactured excuses. In any field where the worker is an easily replaced comodity, expect the HR department to be populated by weasles and snakes. It's the way of the world. The only hope is to make yourself indispensible. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | Herr Herr, thanks for the uplifting post. Made the day a bit more tolerable. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Jim Rankin | 'A large national insurer that I worked for briefly would fire military reservists whose training schedule was inconvenient for the boss man. It's not only unpatriotic, it's blatantly illegal.' I wonder if there is a group of ex-military types with legal training to fight this sort of thing, and make life miserable for employers who try it. I know that military types exemplify 'gets things done' more than pretty much any other group I can think of. Example: At my university the student government wanted to put some restrictions on the ROTC on campus (can't remember what exactly). The ROTC students pro ceeded to organize, win most of the following student body elections, and overturn the resolutions. Philo, if you're lurking, any thoughts? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Godsmack | Philo was fired. |
| Fri 04 Jun | tree | Steve-O, complaints here are not about coffee being hot or cold or chairs not comfortable. They're about arrogant and stupid interruption to work. The reason for these complaints is that developers, in particular, are expected to apply pretty advanced expertise to generally important jobs, but without the same level of respect that equivalent jobs hold. Accountants don't whinge about people talking next to them because accountants get their own offices. Also, to the folks who make comparisons with manual jobs, I did lots of manual jobs at uni, including fruit picking. They were very pleasant. People are respected for hard work. Complaints about the conditions in IT land are entirely justified. |
| Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | I love technology, but dislike the industry at times. Putting code into production is still pretty rewarding. Even if it almost kills you in the process. |
| Fri 04 Jun | GreenMeanie | >At the end of this all I realised that IT is actually pretty >damn good compared to other industries. Duh |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kyralessa | So perhaps the solution is for software companies to be run by programmers, since they'd understand the needs of other programmers. Except that as you transition from being a programmer to being a businessperson running a company, you start getting out of touch with coding... Which earns you the disrespect of your programmers... Which leads us to...the status quo. Perhaps this is the software industry's Peter Principle. |
| Sat 05 Jun | no name | No. Microsoft is successful because it's run by developers. |
| Real or Hoax? You be the Judge | Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock |
| Stumbled on this site the other day: http://www.wingmusic.co.nz/listen.html is it for real or a hoax? Either way its hilarious. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | No, it's real enough. She even got a grant from the local council for 'promotion'. According to her site she does 'do performances in Rest Homes and Hospitals', so I'd make sure you don't fall ill anywhere near New Zealand. Still I think we ought to latch on and release a JOS compilation. My suggestions for the first three tracks 'You'll do it my way' sung by Joel Spolsky 'I can't get no medication' by Dennis Atkins & 'I could Spam all night' by Philo. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | > I'd make sure you don't fall ill anywhere near New Zealand. I'm in Australia, should I be worried? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | Nice to see I made Stephen's top three. Stephen, what is it about my posts that aggravate you enough to mischaracterize them as spam? Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sick of Stephen | Let's add 'I just wanna complain all night' by Stephen Jones |
| Fri 04 Jun | Chris Hulan | So is she William Hungs ( http://www.williamhung.net/ ) mother? Such unique talents must be related... |
| Fri 04 Jun | _ | 'I have worked hard and I hope you have all found I am improving. Thank you for all who supports me helping me very much as I go along. ' Says it all,really. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paul McCartney | She's a lot better than Yoko. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Atkins | Ha! I'm #2 after Joel! And they said I'd never amount to anything. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Aussie bloke | > I'd make sure you don't fall ill anywhere near New Zealand. > I'm in Australia, should I be worried? There's a story in today's papers that Australia attacked New Zealand with an F-111. An exercise you see. The Defence Minister is denying it was an attack. |
| Fri 04 Jun | x | F-111? The Aussie's are still flying the 'Varks? Do they still maintain a squadron of Sopwith Camels, too? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | Australia has taken Joel's advice and decided not to "rewrite" their fighter jets from scratch. We refactor them. |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | If it's good enough for Britney Spears and Cher... http://www.antarestech.com/products/auto-tune4.html 'Hailed as a 'holy grail of recording' by Recording magazine, Auto-Tune is a multi-platform plug-in that corrects intonation problems in vocals or solo instruments, in real time, without distortion or artifacts, while preserving all of the expressive nuance of the original performance with audio quality so pristine that the only difference between what goes in and what comes out is the intonation. Over a typical pitch correction range, it is simply not possible to tell that a sound has been processed, except that it is perfectly in tune.' |
| Windows XP SP2 And Pirates | Fri 04 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) |
| Microsoft have stated that Windows XP Service Pack 2 will not install on pirated copies of the OS. Is this the right decision? Personally I think it isnt, because I think the greater good is more important i.e. Id rather PCs running Windows XP connected to the Internet were patched, irrespective of whether the OS was paid for. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | Bull. A continual security update service is an important part of the deal. Why should they give that away free to non-subscribers? Don't get me wrong: it would be a great act of altruism if they did, but I don't see why they should. |
| Fri 04 Jun | MSHack | They should give it free, because those are also the people that will host DOS attacks, spread virus, and impact those of us, who do have legal copies. If they do not want to provide the entire SP, then provide a 'security only' pack. Much like we immunize people, not because they may get sick, but they make make the rest of us. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Fothy | So basically you are saying that Microsoft should be providing everyone with an upgrade service regardless of whether they bought the software or not? If they do this then there is no incentive to buy any future software from them as they will be giving everyone a free upgrade anyway. The argument that they should do it because there will be lot's of machines that aren't patched and will cause a security problem for everyone - well when this happens and the people realise that the only way they can fix it is by buying registered software so that they can download updates, don't you think Microsoft will expect to get increased sales from people buying so that they can update? If your pc is screwed up and the only way to fix it is to buy a licence and update then what would most people do? |
| Fri 04 Jun | James 'Smiler' Farrer | SP1 was easy enough to workaround so I'm sure SP2 won't prove much difficulty to get that onto illegal machines as well. Also generally people with illegitimate copies are also more clued up about security so I think that the people most affected by these updates are the people with legitimate copies. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | Actually, unless you've got some new information it's not clear exactly what is happening. The last I heard they said that SP2 would not install on the twenty most commonly pirated serial numbers. This means one of two things: 1) The twenty most pirated serial numbers represent a very small proportion of XP installations, in which case why are MS bothering with the restriction. 2) They represent a very large proportion of the installed base, in which case their are going to be a load of unpatched machines attached to the Internet, and legtimate users and sysadmins are going to be having headaches. At least they are not doing what they did with Office 2000 SR1 and having it completely immobilize your program if it doesn't like the serial number, and force a clean format of the hard disk. And, of course, not bother to tell you unless you searched the knowledge base. Presumably they are hoping that some people will be so worried that they will go off and buy a legit copy. In my opinion there will be little chance of that. Most people won't even know of the existence of the service pack until their local pirated software dealer offrers them cracked versions of WinXP SP2. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mr Jack | 'The last I heard they said that SP2 would not install on the twenty most commonly pirated serial numbers.' Hmm... and what if you have a legitimate copy of one of those twenty numbers? Surely you still have the right to the update? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | With Office 2000 SR1 you had to contact Microsoft to get Office working again. At least if SP2 refuses to install you'll still have a working machine. I suspect that MS has long ago been in contact with the people with legit numbers, if only to huff and puff about their allowing them to be pirated. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | I'd have thought #1 in the most pirated serial number list would be the MSDN one. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Brad Wilson | There isn't a single key for Windows XP for MSDN. You have to go online and generate one that's unique for (and tied to) you. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | 'and legtimate users and sysadmins are going to be having headaches.' Just out of curiosity, since I haven't done large-scale sysadmin'ing - is it really that difficult to pull the plug on an infected machine? I mean, that's what my ISP does - storm of packets coming from your IP? You're off the network. But some of the major ISP's seem oblivious to this option. I've got a friend whose hobby is finding and reporting spammers, infected machines, and so on - he's gotten very cold responses from some big ISP's when he's tried to tell them they have an infected machine on their network. Generally the response is 'what are we supposed to do about it?' So - on large networks, if you've got an infected machine, I would think it wouldn't be that hard to a) identify it, b) cut it off the network. So why don't more ISP's do it? If *every* network did it, wouldn't virus outbreaks be over in a week? Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | My Cousin Vinniwashtharam | MS can blacklist keys *that they know about* (i.e., ones that has been widely traded on the Internet) -- that's what they did with SP1. But there's been a key generator available for over 2 years now. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Richard Kuo | Unless I'm mistaken, this is mostly irrelevant, becuase last I checked, MS said they would let pirates install XP SP2. Google for "XP SP2 pirates". |
| Fri 04 Jun | Malik | I just came back from Malaysia, and have seen the XP SP2 pirated copy on the market. Even though i wouldnt expect the sp2 to be a fully tested version. However, the fact is, its there. Secondly, has microsoft ever heard of the 'BlueList' group?. They invented the Bluelist- XP Serial- Generator that successfully hacks the activation scheme, and thus giving your illegit windows xp a genuine activation key. Thus this is what allowed SP1 to install successfully on pirated copies of xp. The generator can come up with hundreds of serial numbers, depending on the hardware id and the activation keys algorithm. Has microsoft even taken this into consideration?, and they are boasting of blacklisting a mere 20 of the most commonly used pirated serials. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3774567.stm |
| Fri 04 Jun | WildTiger | There was whole bunch of complains on russian forums starting around last summer about "I just got pirated WinXP SP2!!! Why $#$#$ M$ created this WinXP SP2 that that breaks my machine". You can buy anything you want even if it is not anywhere near production quality (or barely planned yet) :) |
| Sat 05 Jun | My Cousin Vinniwashtharam | >>'the 'BlueList' group?. They invented the Bluelist- XP Serial- Generator that successfully hacks the activation scheme, and thus giving your illegit windows xp a genuine activation key. Thus this is what allowed SP1 to install successfully on pirated copies of xp.' Wrong. No need to 'hack the activation scheme'. SP1 only blacklisted 2 keys. The first one that was leaked onto the net (one that started with 'FCK...') and one other. So all you need is a 'volume license' version of Win XP and the key generator (mine says 'XP Key Recoverer and Discoverer v5.12') |
| I hate this industry | Fri 04 Jun | Cheese eating surrender monkey |
| I hate it. I really do. I got a job offer from a great company. Doing multithreaded systems programming in Java, something related to the 3G infrastructure. The interview went ok. They apparently liked me. My core skills were in all the areas they worked. This was last week. I bought Sedgewicks algorithms book, not cheap, because they said this was going to be a half-development, half-R&D position. I wanted to be ready. Now they called back and said, Sorry. We dont need you anymore. After they said they did. After they created in me the hope of working in a great project. After they made me buy that goddamn book. Now the book sits on my desk, a symbol of another punch I took from IT. Im seriously thinking about working as a chef. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | Look at the bright side - it's a great book. You probably have a lot of free time now, so grind through it and you will ace any interview. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Cheese eating surrender monkey | Yes, but how many interviews are there left? |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | That sucks |
| Fri 04 Jun | Furious George | That totally sucks. At least you didn't quit a job after you got the offer. Make the most of the book, there will be other interviews. |
| Fri 04 Jun | _ | I don't think a chef has an easier life =) |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | No. He most certainly does not. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Interaction Architect | Can you return it? I bought a book from Amazon once that was not exactly what I expected so I returned it. They refunded the money no problem. |
| Fri 04 Jun | maybe we're competing for the same job | It wasn't Cramer was it? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | If they actually made you an offer and you have consequent expenses bill them, and bill them for the interview as consultancy. Then when they don't pay sue them under whatever small claims court you have. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Fred | As long as you didn't bring the book with you in the bathroom, you should be able to return it. At least if your name ain't George. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | This reminds me of a story... At a company I worked for, we had a meeting with a potential client doing some web design work. We had a younger employee sitting in on the meeting to get his feet wet. Two days after the initial meeting, the younger employee says, 'Hey, check this out.' He went ahead and created a website for this company.. Stated that he stayed up all night working on it... I said, 'Why would you do that? We have no idea if we are going to get the gig or not.' Turns out we didn't, and the work was throw-away. ----------- Sounds like you jumped the gun. If anything, they just gave you a free lesson (well not free, but for the cost of that book) |
| Fri 04 Jun | TooManyChefs | My brother is a chef, and lucky to be working. Forget it - it's like IT - too many people, too few jobs. Besides, the hours suck (6 days/week, 12+ hour days). |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Is there an industry where there aren't too many people and too few jobs? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dignified | >> Is there an industry where there aren't too many people and too few jobs? I'm sure there are. And they're that way for very good reasons. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | >> 'Is there an industry where there aren't too many people and too few jobs?' << I hear the U.S. Army has good job stability. :-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Mine was a rethoric question. Everyone is facing hardships these days. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Oh for another | I understand you might be frustrated, but c'mon...buck up. And it isn't just this industry that will do that; its any industry because that's just the way life goes. Get up, get over it and move on. |
| Fri 04 Jun | son of parnas | > After they made me buy that goddamn book. How come you don't have that book already? Be a chef. You clearly don't care about software development as a profession. You should be buying more books and actually reading them and actually using them to make yourself better. |
| Fri 04 Jun | K | I second the warning about working as a chef. Haveing come from restaurants before IT. Remember that a chef will work minimum 60 hr weeks. He or she will probably be burned or cut every day and spend a good two hours yelling if he / she is a "Working Chef" otherwise it will be four or more hours yelling and burned cut twice a week. Poeple watch the food shows and think chef is a glamerous job.... The only good thing about "The Restaurant" is that it effectively dispels that notion. Even the glamourous celebrity chef has a sucky life (although he does a good job of bringing a lot of it down on himself) |
| Fri 04 Jun | De Napoli Le fou Hawari | Keep your head up, don't give up. Trust me I have been there too so many times, you just need to keep fighting. Its a bitch out there. The Jobs are goimg to god damn India, and we are screwed here. Don't give up dude. There is light at the end of the tunnel. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anonymous | >>>After they made me buy that goddamn book. They _MADE_ you buy the book? If it was critical for your 'job', why wouldn't they buy it? Why would you do _ANYTHING_ until you signed your employment papers? You are young, no? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wally | Shush, guys. If he becomes sufficiently disgruntled to leave the industry, that makes it that much easier for the rest of us. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Norrick | 'Is there an industry where there aren't too many people and too few jobs? ' Nursing. |
| weird (?) declaration | Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky |
| Hey all, I noticed the following in someones code: int foo(int * const ptr, ...) Now, this doesnt make any sense to me. Its like: int foo(const int var) Whats the use ? I would go on and say that its a mistake (maybe he meant const int* ptr), but its an experienced developer. So any ideas ? The only one I have is to prevent himself from changing that ptr, but what harm would it make ?!?! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | I'm not a C++ developer, but is this relevant? I post this to test my own knowledge, rather than to answer your question. http://www.relisoft.com/book/lang/pointer/6list.html The comments at the bottom of the page where it discusses the declaration: 'Link * const pLink;' translates to 'Link is a constant pointer to link.' 'Link const * pLink;' translates it to 'Plink is a pointer to a constant link.' If I have this right, then you colleague is declaring the variable as a constant pointer to an int. That is, the value passed into the paramater (pushed onto the stack) is the memory address of a variable that contains an integer value. The value of this address cannot be changed within the function. On the other hand, with your declaration you are stating that the paramater pushed onto the stack will be be integer variable, and that integer variable does not change. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Testing further: int foo(const int var) If this declaration was used instead then the value of var would be lost after the execution. If the value of var was changed within the function then that new value would be lost. const int * ptr If this decalaration was used instead it would not be possible to change the value stored at the address pointed to by pointer. You could change the pointer to point elsewhere, but you still could not change its target. By declaring as 'int foo(int * const ptr, ...)' the developer has ensured that: 1) The target variable for ptr will be available after the function has finished. 2) If, at any pointer, the function updates the target of ptr, he can be sure that this is the one he expects since ptr is constant. Do I understand correctly? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | "If, at any point" |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | I think you miss something guys... I understand perfectly the various 'const' semantics in C++ (heck, I even wrote a short tutorial about it: http://www.geocities.com/spur4444/prog/const_and_pointers.html). The default passing of variables in C and C++ is by value, on the stack. This means that if the called function changes the argument, it doesn't affect the caller - it's just a temporary stack value. Thus the following declaration doesn't protect the caller: int foo(const int var) Any more than: int foo(int var) A common way to protect the caller is passing constant pointers or references to some function, liek this: int foo(const int* ptr) This way, foo can't change what ptr points to, as it could in: int foo(int* ptr) foo can change 'ptr' itself, but exactly as 'var' in the previous example, it's just a stack temporary, so it doesn't harm the caller. So, declaring: int foo(int* const ptr) Doesn't add any protection over: int foo(int* ptr) Thus it's weird. I'm into C/C++ for many years, and it's the first time I saw such a declaration in code. |
| Fri 04 Jun | chance | Yes, Eli, you are right. It appears whoever wrote this declaration had a temporary moment of higher insight :) If you say he was a experienced programmer, I'd bet one day he will himself wonder about what he tried to accomplish by that declaration. Regards, chance |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Try to compile this:
void foo(int* const ptr)
{
ptr = 0;
}
void bar(const int* ptr)
{
delete ptr;
}
and you will see why he has done it. His version stops him, by mistake, assigning a value to the pointer instead of the int (i.e. instead of *ptr = |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | So let him assign 'ptr = 0', what harm does it make ? If you declare local pointers in your function, do you do: int* const ptr = new int(88); ??? If not, why not ? It would prevent you from assigning to them later. The variables a function receives on stack are this functions' property, it may do whatever it likes with them. It's considered bad style, perhaps, to change them, but it's also considered bad style to fill your program with useless const's. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | And your second function is irrelevant. const int* ptr makes a lot of sense, and should be ALWAYS used, unless the ptr is passed explicitly to be changed, in which case, it's good practice to define some empty OUT macro and write: int foo(OUT int* ptr) // now I know ptr will be changed |
| Fri 04 Jun | chance | I'm not so sure about this macro approach. Personally I think it's fine to stick to the idiom that when passing pointers to a function, you declare them to point at constant value and when they are meant to be explicitly changed, you just leave that 'const' out of the declaration. Same goes for references, naturally. I believe it's called part of the concept of 'const correctness'. Regards, chance |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Eli, I suspected that I was missing something, which is why I wanted to test my knowledge. I have to say, this confirms my choice not to use C++. Just one more question. Is the constant restraint just within the body of that function. ie. If the pointer is passed to another function, will that function be able to change the pointer's value? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | Ged, The constness is 'contagious'. If: int foo(const int* ptr) { ... } ptr, for 'foo' is const. So if there's another function named 'bar': int bar(int* lalala) { .. } Foo can't call: bar(ptr); Since it's illegal to pass const pointers to functions that expect non-const inputs. And about your 'not to use C++' comment... I just don't want to start a religious war here :-) Each language, IMHO, has its place. This is proved by reality. |
| Fri 04 Jun | chance | 'Just one more question. Is the constant restraint just within the body of that function. ie. If the pointer is passed to another function, will that function be able to change the pointer's value?' myFunc( const int * px ) { // you are not able to change the value pointed by px, thus *px = 30; // is illegal // until const is explicitly overriden by casting } myFunc( int * px ) { // you are allowed to change the value pointed by px *px = 30; // is OK } Regards, chance. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Eli, Thanks for the confirmation. I don't want to start a religous war either. The comment was regarding my own shortcomings :) I envy the people who are able to cope with C++, it is all beyond me. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | > So let him assign 'ptr = 0', what harm does it make ? It depends entirely on what he does with it afterwards, really, doesn't it. You can check things at compiletime or try and debug them later. Personally I will always try and get a machine to do the work for me so that it catches my mistakes. It is like checking (a == 0) or (0 == a) both are valid, yet the latter will stop you mistyping and ending up with an assignment. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Sean Conner | The declaration int foo (int *const ptr) imparts to the compiler that the parameter ptr is not to be changed. There are two benefits to this---one, it's an assumption the programmer is stating and any assignments to ptr is some form of error in the code. Second, it may allow the compiler to do some optimizations that it might not otherwise be able to do. |
| What's a simple CGI example to code? | Thu 03 Jun | *Null |
| I want to show someone how to accept POST parameters in their perl script, and produce a dynamically generated HTML page. I cant think of a decent idea, besides print Hello & parms(firstName) or print the sum of the numbers is: & parms(val1) + parms(val2) Thanks for any ideas that are a little more interesting (yet basically as simple) |
| Thu 03 Jun | .NET Developer | - Stock Quotes - Book price by ISBN - Sports statistics by year or team or whatever - Calculator (duh!, worst than HelloWorld) - Search results by keyword - ... You should look for simple WebServices examples and steal ideas, after all CGIs were the original web services. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | Most useful or interesting stuff will obviously involve communicating with some other system or datasource (web service, RDBMS, file store, directory server...) Aside from that...how about a mad lib? Anyone remember those from the 80's? hehe |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | In the 80's I didn't have color television. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ken Ray | You could have a look at this site - a good introduction to sound CGI programming practices: http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ |
| Sat 05 Jun | slackerssuck | What .... CGI .... please. I think you ought to find someone to show you a framework. Believe me ... if you are going to build anything that goes anywhere you will want a framework otherwise just use formmail.pl but get the secure version. |
| Virtual PC or Drive Image? | Thu 03 Jun | Jetguy |
| Thought the smart JoS community could educate me. Im confused as to the role virtual machines (VMWare or Virtual PC) can play for developers and testers. Do these products supplement or replace the use of imaging products like Ghost or Driveimage? Im about to reformat a machine that Id like to be my test computer. Its got enough RAM, processor and HD. I was thinking of installing Windows Server 2003 on it as the base. Then what? Would I use Virtual PC to install the other operating systems? Or use something like Drive Image to save that? What if one of the operating systems Id like occasional use of is Linux? Would that change the answer? We have a license to both VPC and Drive Image, so cost isnt a factor. And the machine doesnt need to be screamingly fast, so it could survive a slowdown due to virtualization if thats the case. Id love a pointer to an article that describes the difference between these approaches and helps me choose. Thanks in advance for advice, experiences, etc. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | I have never used VMWare or VPC but I believe they allow you to run say for example a Linux or Win 98 session under an OS like Win XP. Contrast that with Ghost, DriveImage type software which simply makes a copy of your drive that be restored. The benefits of VMWare or VPC is that you can easily switch to another OS in order to test your software. The benefits of Ghosting your drive is that you don't have reinstall everything from scratch and can simply copy the image back to the drive. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | Maybe I should mention that with VMWare or VPC you can switch to another OS without rebooting or having another computer it is all done on the same PC thus eliminating huge testing labs with row after row of computers with different configurations of different OS's. |
| Thu 03 Jun | CF | Another thing to consider is that with VMWare you can purchase their GSK Server and run whatever you want, without having to install a base operating system. We used it for developing across several different platforms without having to have 5 seperate servers. Worked great (we did have quite a beefy box with it). We also use VMWare for testing our current application against various setups. It is great because, like Ghost, you can capture and rebuild the machine quickly. Unlike Ghost, it also captures the state of the machine at the time it is run, so you can tweak a lot more settings. As far as OSs, VMWare has a page of the OSs they support: http://www.vmware.com/products/server/gsx_specs.html I'm not sure about VirtualPC, but I do know we had a bugger of a time trying to get Linux to work properly, and access to devices seemed to be buggy. But that might have just been our configuration, and I don't have enough experience to know if that is a true problem. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John C. | Note that Virtual PC won't run on Windows Server 2003. Basically the benefit of the VM solutions is that you get multiple OSs simultaneously on a single machine, so you can, for example, test an app under a bunch of different environments without rebooting or using multiple machines. Ghost and its ilk are useful if you want to be able to store a system's current condition and restore it to that condition later. You could install and configure your test machine in a known state, and then Ghost it. Do a bunch of stuff that messes it up (maybe you're testing your installer, or some dicey beta software, or whatever), and when you're ready to return to the original configuration you just restore from the image. You can, of course, maintain multiple images, so you could have configs like Windows XP with SP1 but otherwise bare, Windows XP with SP1 and MS Office, Windows XP with SP 2, etc. But just as with your regular old PC, only one of these is active at a time, and the image basically just recreates the way things were at the time you took the snapshot. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | VMWare/VPC is definately faster to restore back to your consistent base state than Ghost. With ghost, you have to reformat and reinstall the whole system from the image. But with a VMW/VPC virtual disk, you just hit the 'off' button and tell it not to save the state. Plus, using ghost will require you to have secondary storage for your images -- either a separate partition or data drive, or cd/dvd -- because you can't keep them on the drive you'll be wiping... Ghost is great for sysadmins who need a standard setup for new PC's, and as a general system backup tool, but I would definately recommend the VMW/VPC route for application testing and most other scenarios where RAM is plentiful and reduced speed isn't an issue. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Brad Wilson | 'Note that Virtual PC won't run on Windows Server 2003.' That's not true. Windows Server 2003 is not a SUPPORTED host OS, but it works just fine. And, of course, Windows Server 2003 is a fully supported guest OS. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | You can run multiple instances of VPC at once, if you have a bunch of RAM... As others have said here - the benefit is having multiple machines available without multiple machines. I have a library of VPC's - Win2k3 bare, Win2k3 w/SQL Server, Win2k3 w/SharePoint, WinXP bare, WinXP w/VS.Net, etc. When I want to try something funky, I pull a copy of the VPC, run it, and play with it until I break it. In addition, since the image is running as a virtual machine, I've got instant network capability and can share to local folders easily to move files in and out. In addition, Virtual PC's make demos very, very easy - I just carry the server with me. No need for a network or internet connection in the room I'm giving the demo from. Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | Brad, thanks for the clarification. I tried to install VPC on WS2003 the other night and I guess I was too brain-dead to comprehend the difference between 'not supported' and 'won't work at all'. Using VPC for Ghost-like rollbacks, as Joe suggests, is an interesting idea. I've always had someplace to store the drive images and reinstallation hasn't seemed that slow, but I'll have to give that a try. Incidentally, has anyone here attempted -- better yet, succeeded -- in running Longhorn within VPC (or VPC on top of Longhorn)? I haven't had time to even try, but it would be nice... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alex | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000306.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/news/fog0000000103.html |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | I have been running Win2k3 in VPC on Win2k3 in test for the last few months without any problem. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Chris Nahr | I couldn't install Windows XP in VPC on my XP Pro system for some reason... got a BSOD in the VPC when trying to boot up. Probably some hardware issue. Windows 2000 installed and worked fine but I noticed that VPC is a good deal slower than the real thing. I used it to try out the latest Whidbey prerelease version. Technically it worked but it was so slow that I quickly ditched the idea of using Whidbey for any real work. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | I've run Longhorn as a guest OS within VPC on a WinXP SP1 host w/ almost no problems...there are some articles out there if you google for it. The biggest things were a very strong recommendation to install the 'additional tools' into the guest OS, and a warning that the new side-docked task bar causes a nasty explorer memory leak. I also found the VPC file sharing support to be buggy (sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't). As an aside, I can't say I'm particularly fond of the new Longhorn UI chrome...especially the new bits on top of File Explorer and Internet Explorer windows, and the side-docked task bar thingy. What a waste of screen real estate...blech! |
| Sat 05 Jun | Albert D. Kallal | Virtual PC creates a virtual pc, and you can install dos, windows 2003, longhorn, or Linix or whatever. I have little, or no idea why some comments here refer to some software and some OS not working with virtual pc. If it don’t work with VPC,then it likely will NOT work. I have even installed VPC on windows XP HOME edition. I then installed a copy of windows xp in the VPC. On Wednesday was the traveling Tech Ed show, and all demos of win 2003 server were ALL running on VPC. The same of course was observed at the MVP summit I attended in Redmond in April. In other words, every MSFT person I meet and looked at any demo they are running is using VPC. I mean, how do you demonstrate to a audience how Small Business server can “push” installs of popular software to each client on the network? The demo on how to use SBS and have clients log on and get software installed on the client pc was a snap to demo to the audience. The MSFT presenter had a notebook with 1.6 gigs of ram, and a 60 gig drive. He had at least 30+ virtual pcs in the list. Most, if not all were win 2003 server. (the notebook was running 2003). There is not a MSFT person I KNOW that is not eating, breathing and using VPC as a general tool. As for software testing? My gosh..how could/did one get along before? I ran VPC all day yesterday testing my install (using the office developer edition and the MSI installer). Wham…install test program…..wham install test update. Wham shut down vpc…DISCARD changes (that means VPC will re-start with all changes DUMPED to the hard disk since the last start. In my case, we are talking about a clean windows xp with sp1 installed). I was going wham, wham, wham all day long. I must have testing 20 to 30+ installs then simply restarted VPC each time clean copy of windows xp. I mean, tweak the msi install..test it again. I was like compiling software over an over! How the hell can you even come close to using ghost to do this? I sure as the heck can’t test 30 installs and tweaks to the install options in less then a hour with ghost, or a image system. Heck, shutting down VPC and discarding changes is much quicker then trying to un-install the software crap I just installed! With VPC..you simply shutdown..and tell it to discard ANY changes to the virtual hard disk. You got a windows XP box, but tomorrow you need to setup, test, and run 5 computers and configure Small Business Server. What do you do here?? You think you actually go to a clients site and play with a live system to screw the whole job you have up? With VPC…you got the 5 computers all running, and all networked right in front of your face! And, you can test any setup scenario you want. Each of the clients can connect, and even run the web server on the sbs box. Want to test a web server…go ahead. Want to test creating some new group polices and security stuff…go ahead. You got 5 computers and can do whatever you want. This is really a true simulation…much like the Matrix. You can create and test virtual worlds. Of course, this all being done on a laptop while you enjoy a coffee at the local shop! Want to test some remote software…or setup Terminal Services…go ahead. Anyone who has to develop, and wants to test/learn/play with new software systems will instantly fall in love with VPC. And, once you try it…you will be so hooked as to wondering why you have not used it all the time. To me, the real kicker is the speed at which you can lean, and test, and try new software, and new software systems. I had a full MSDN subscription will zillions of cool server software stuff like SBS (small business server). I could not test, or use any of that software without a HUGE amount of effort to setup a test mule pc. And, then I am tied up and not mobile. Now, I can test and play with anything. Want to learn, and try out SMS? Go ahead! SMS = software management server = a system to push software installs to client pc’s on your network. You folks don’t actually walk around to each pc in the office and install software anymore. do you? On the other hand, you do need to sit down and learn SMS..and you can’t really do that on a live system. Who has got a test network of 5 clean pc's at home? So, just setup a few pc’s with VPC, network them together on your virtual playground. and them play with sms. So, you need one sbs server, and 5 xp clients…good..done!...lets play! What word processing is to writing, is what vpc is to software testing and developing and learning. Word processing lets you write more, and play more. Vpc does the same thing for any system you want to learn…. Really….if you are not running VPC..then I have to assume you are missing out some something really big here….. Albert D. Kallal Edmonton, Alberta Canada kallal@msn.com http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn |
| Social Engineering to shape site traffic? | Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander |
| Recently I dropped off a couple of rolls of film at Costco. They have absurdly low prices for developing a roll and returning a photo CD containing reasonably high resolution (1024x1536) images. But I screwed up and checked the option for online photos when I dropped them off. So after I got home I attempted to download the images. Kodaks online photo site had the option to download en masse as a ZIP file, which was unexpectedly great. There were three size options for the images: small (480 x 640), medium (768 x 1024), and high resolution (1024 x 1536). I selected the large option and clicked the next-step button. The same page is returned, now with a message saying something like: high resolution images are not yet available. Please try again tomorrow. In the meantime, please select a medium or low resolution image size to download. In this returned screen the high res option was grayed out. This made no sense to me. Why should the high resolution images take longer? They are probably the source data for the low res images anyway. Ok. So I selected medium, which proceeded to give me a Save dialog and downloaded a 2mb-ish file. I was curious. I backed up to the initial download screen (prior to the high res option grayed out), selected high-res again, and clicked the next button. It worked this time. A save dialog came up, and the file that was downloaded was about 12 mb. I opened the zip file and it contained nice big images. I proceeded to look up the next roll and I did the same steps. I first tried high res, got a try again tomorrow message, and downloaded a medium res group. Backed up and was able to download the high res group after downloading the medium res, only a few minutes later. It occured to me that this may not simply be a state-dependent quirk of this web site. It may be deliberate programming to avoid bandwidth load as much as possible. My thought is this: the first attempt to download high resolution images is ALWAYS denied. The user is allowed to download the other two (smaller) types. But this acts as a trigger to allow the site to allow downloading of the high resolution images. IE: In my theory - Kodak/Costco have decided that they want to conserve bandwidth. A certain number of users will be satisfied with the low or medium size images and will simply forget that they have high resolution images available. Most users will respect the advice to return tomorrow, and so many will forget that they had these images available, which are about 4-6x larger. A hacker such as myself will try to work around it and will find out that a simple state machine keeps the high resolution images unavailable until smaller images are first gotten. Oh yes, Kodaks site expires images after about 1 month. (for a roll dropped off on May 25, expiration is July 11.) Seems like a perfect way to economize to me, and most people will not notice. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Edward | I don't quite understand though. First, 12MB for the high-res, and only 2MB for the medium-res? Given the sizes you've described, the large only has twice as many pixels. Second, bandwidth generally costs 0.50 USD up to 5.00 USD (at the extreme) per GB. For the 12MB download then, that's a cost of 6 cents to Costco, even at the higher price. Considering the size of Costco, I'm quite certain they get a very good rate. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dino | Plus lower resolution doesn't print nicely. Therefore if you still want nice prints you have to go back to the lab. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MilesArcher | There are people who still use film? I thought I was the last to switch. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander | The medium images are 768 x 512 and average 120K each. The high resolution images are 1536 x 1024 and seem to average about 400KB each. The medium res's zip file was about 3 meg, the high res about 12 meg. The economics seem pretty skimpy, but I can imagine some PHB telling the web site developers to make the consumer 'fight' for the highest quality images. What I encountered seemed to be a simple state machine behavior, and appeared to have nothing to do with time required to 'process' digital images. I use film for special occasions because the weight of the camera is a LOT less, and because response time and reliability in a variety of situations for a mediocre film camera is vastly greater than that for even a top notch digital camera. IE: battery life, response time, autofocus speed, low light performance - all usually better than digital. I also use a digital for less important occasions, for 'record' shots, and also for when I don't want to bankrupt myself.... Each have their place. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander | I didn't point out the obvious: the high resolution image is 2x the height and width of the medium resolution image. Hence the high res image has 4x the surface area of the medium res image, and 4x the pixels. As loosely validated by the resultant JPG image sizes. |
| Thu 03 Jun | www.marktaw.com | Or they just want you to look at their sponsor ads twice, with a day in between each viewing so you have fresh eyes each time? Maybe they're doing a pay-per-view campaign, or people do click the 2nd time who didn't click the first. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Tom H | If they did it intentionally they're idiots, probably ex-dot.bombers who don't understand that you need paying customers to run a business. But Mark is probably right, they want you to come back a second time to see they're ads again. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | MarkTAW, long time no see. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | 'response time and reliability in a variety of situations for a mediocre film camera is vastly greater than that for even a top notch digital camera. IE: battery life, response time, autofocus speed, low light performance - all usually better than digital.' FWIW, I had very good results a while back borrowing a friend's Nikon D1X, which is basically a professional Nikon SLR body (F1-style, I think) that happens to be digital. It works with standard Nikkor SLR lenses (no difference in AF performance that I could perceive) and had superb shutter action. Shutter lag was non-existent and some kind of buffering made it possible to make half a dozen rapid-fire shots (3/sec or so, IIRC) before it insisted on slowing down. Adequate low-light performance (there's an ISO 3200 mode), though I didn't compare directly to results from my Nikon N70 film camera. Battery life was never an issue for me. The D1X is (was) a few thousand dollars, but it looks like most of the same features have recently become available in the D70, a digital version of the N70. About $1000. I'm not really a serious photographer, though I do know a few pros who are now wholly digital. Not saying there's anything wrong with film, but the truly high-end digital stuff seems to be getting very, very good... and obviously the convenience and long-term cost advantages of digital are a big plus (though I still occasionally wax nostalgic for the days of dodging and burning with the smell of fixer wafting through the air...) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | As far as I can tell a digital SLR is about three times the price of the equivalent film one. I still am tempted to by a cheap 3 megapixel digital camera and wait a couple of years for the price of digital SLR's to come down. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Bored Bystander | >> As far as I can tell a digital SLR is about three times the price of the equivalent film one. Exactly... a digital camera or SLR with the kind of quality and characteristics that beat film cameras is well over $1000. They're like plasma TVs - great, but a luxury item. |
| Sat 05 Jun | www.marktaw.com | I have a little experience with digital cameras, and a lot of experience with analog v. digital recording. I found a cheap-crappy fixed-lense non-slr Canon Elph in Disneyland. I hate each and every picture that comes out of that camera, with a few notable exceptions. I own a Pentax K-1000 (I think it's achieved near legendary status by now) and I love it each and every picture that comes out of it, with a few notable exceptions. My digital cameras are finicky and I have to coax good pictures out of them, but it's not impossible. I'm sure a better camera could get better results. Digital picture disks of my photos from developers typically look like crap, but are such high resolution that you may be able to shrink them down to something nice looking. I want to set up a darkroom in my bathroom. I'm sorry, what were we talking about? |
| IP Routing | Thu 03 Jun | Confused |
| My pc has two network cards: one that I use to connect to my LAN (and internet) and another that I use to connect to another private WAN. Security issues mean that my connection to the WAN can t be through my local network - so I have to disable my lan connection and enable the WAN connection and vice versa every time I change between them. My question is: can I automate this to ensure that all connections to certain IPs go through one network connection and all others go through the other connection? Not very clued up on this stuff, so I dont know if it is even possible. XP machine. |
| Thu 03 Jun | hoser | There may be a way to set a routing table similar to the Unix 'route' command, but fundamentally this really has no bearing on running a segregated network. Assuming that your LAN uses an reserved IP domain (like 10.xxxx) or even your own class C address space perhaps, then IP routing to hosts on the WAN (internet) will only go through the WAN interface because they would not be reachable via the LAN. Same is true vice-versa, LAN addresses won't be reachable via the WAN. The real questions then is are you running software that would bridge packets across the WAN to LAN interface? I suppose that the reason that you're not allowed to run both LAN/WAN simultaneously is that your admin cannot be sure that you're not running a bridge of some sort. And if not you, then who? You are compromising network security by running a computer that sometimes connects to the WAN on the LAN - namely beause you may be leaking information back and forth between the 2 - either intentionally or unintentionally. The reason for disallowing simultaneous connections really just has to do with 'leak rate'. You won't allow for real-time transfer of data from LAN to WAN if you're not allowed to connect to both at the same time. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Peter Ibbotson | The route command exists in XP and can be used set up just this, don't ask me how, once upon a time I understood it all but I've blissfully forgotten now. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Doug Withau | Try doing an ipconfig command in a dos box. Look at the IP address and the netmask for each interface. The addresses must be different. The netmask is how your PC determines what packets go where. If you and the netmask with the IP address, and compare the answer to the destination IP address and the netmask, the PC will try and send the packet on that subnet. If there is not a match, the packet will be sent to the default router. (The default router or gateway is how you get to the rest of the universe from the local subnet). So, you should only have one default router on the WAN. If the IP AND the netmask on both interfaces are equal, the subnet of the LAN will probably need to be changed to be different than the WAN. If the IP AND netmask of each interface is different, the PC can determine LAN is subnet 1, WAN is subnet 2, and everything else goes to the default router. This is too short an explaination. Do not allow your XP machine to be a router between the two subnets (LAN and WAN). I have no idea if it can or if it is turned on by default. |
| Thu 03 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | If you are really worried about security I wouldn't put two lan cards box. That's pretty weak security. You could basically turn your box into a router. On linux it would be something like this: route add -net 192.168.0.0/24 gw 192.168.0.1 eth0 |
| Thu 03 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | c:\>route > route ADD 157.0.0.0 MASK 255.0.0.0 157.55.80.1 METRIC 3 IF 2 destination^ ^mask ^gateway metric^ ^ Interface^ If IF is not given, it tries to find the best interface for a given gateway. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Abrar Kazi | Try Seeing netsh on windows 2000 and Windows XP HTH. .::abbu::. |
| Where's Joel? | Wed 02 Jun | AllanL5 |
| It seems like it has been a while since Joel made an appearance on his site. Since he closed down joel on software, I assumed he would be making more entries to the site -- but silence has fallen. No offense, guys and gals, many of you are quite brilliant (and entertaining). Still, I still want Joels insights as well as yours. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Where's Wally? | He's hiding with Wally. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Matthew Lock | Joel went crazy and has gone far far away. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Green Pajamas | Who's Joel? :p |
| Thu 03 Jun | Martin A. Bøgelund | Well, when closing 'Ask Joel', he stated that he preferred to write long articles instead of small postings, because his small postings seemed to have a hidden subject saying 'bash me'. So that's probably what's going on: He's writing long articles, long articles take a longer time to produce, thus output from Joel will appear less often, but in bigger chunks. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Jimmy Jo-Jo | I'd wager he's building an army of 50-ft walking robots. |
| Thu 03 Jun | . | Or providing grammar and spelling lessons for the H1B Indians. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | I guess he's moved out to the desert, judging by the banner picture on his main JoS site. I did send him a message, asking what he was up to recently, but I haven't got a reply as yet. Perhaps Joel has gone on vacation to his summer house for some R&R. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Robert Smithson | I heard he was stuck in meetings with investment bankers, trying to raise $800bn for a hostile bid for Microsoft. But, hey, what do I know... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Martin A. Bøgelund | Another obvious explanation: Joel skimmed through his beloved forum and saw that we all actually are as smart and clever as we think we are, and Joel found that he had nothing relevant to add. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | Perhaps he's *gasp*...working! |
| Thu 03 Jun | Ged Byrne | His last post on the Ask Joel forum was yesterday: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/newyork/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=6206&ixReplies=14 |
| Thu 03 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | He got drafted. Special elite early draft. He has to help prepare for the general US nationals on JoS draft that will be called in October. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Ged Byrne | I see that the 'New Topic' on the Ask Joel forum has been taken away. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Martin A. Bøgelund | Ged, Joels last post in 'Ask Joel' is dated May 12. You posted June 3, so somebody must have ripped out a bunch of pages from your calendar, since you can call that 'yesterday'. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Gen'Xer | Joel was last seen scavaging the Tatooine Jundland Wastes hunting jawas and moisture farmers..... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Charley Bogwill | I bet you he is really "Anon", and is trying to figure out how to spend his 11.5 million. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Berlin Brown | I sure hope not |
| Thu 03 Jun | Berlin Brown | I am sorry Anon, I've been a bad mood this week, no offense, I'll stop |
| Thu 03 Jun | Heroe of the city | I head Joel discovered City of Heroes and he's playing 20 hours / day a scrapper named Woolver1ne that wear only spandex. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Ged Byrne | Erm.... These bank holidays always throw me. |
| Thu 03 Jun | My Cousin Vinniwashtharam | Read his explanation of why he closed 'Ask Joel'. Translation: Joel can't stand the idea of anyone disagreeing with anything he says. That would explain his lack of activity here. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Norrick | 'Translation: Joel can't stand the idea of anyone disagreeing with anything he says.' Don't be an ass. If everything you post draws tons of crap, at a certain point the crap you have to take is going to outweigh the upside of posting anything at all. Once there's no incentive to post, you stop posting. I mean, who wants to get their teeth kicked in on a regular basis? It's as natural as the morning. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Peace loving person | No he's around. He's just giving us silent treatment because a) some people voiced their critisism recently b) we haven't been praising him left and right during the past couple of months. |
| Thu 03 Jun | son of parnas | >I mean, who wants to get their teeth > kicked in on a regular basis If you have something to say you can just say it. It you don't have to defend against every attack. |
| Thu 03 Jun | no name | I've kidnapped him. If you all pay me 1000 of your local currency units I'll let him go again, okay? Actually forget that, he's getting on my nerves, if I pay you, will you take him back? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Eminem | Joel's dead, he's locked in my basement! (ha ha!) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Alyosha` | 1000 of our currency units? It just so happens I have a 1000-peso Colombian note in my pocket right now. That's ... erm ... exactly 36.7 cents, American. Don't spend it all in one place. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Wally | Joel? Who's Joel? I don't know any Joel... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | I see your 1000-peso note and raise you 1000 lei (Romanian) in 100-lei coins, stacked on my desk, which are worth USD 3 cents, or an hour's worth of programming in India. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Alex | He once invited us cordially into his house, and we turned out to be a herd of irresponsible brats. We accepted his hospitality, then started attacking him, completely forgetting that he is our friend and peer, instead treating him like some intangible 'leader' who we feel 'compelled' to bring down. |
| Fri 04 Jun | News media situation in the US is pathetic! | Alex: Are you in ass kissing biz? Just curious. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wisea** | Perhaps he's receiving a pearl necklace from Waldo? <jk> |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alex | I'm just not the 'inborn revolutionary' type. (He who feels referenced, raise your hand.) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Martin A. Boegelund | I just realized what happened to Joel: The last article summary he wrote said: 'Take, for example, me.' And they did! They came an took away Joel from us! |
| Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | To me the 11.5 million isn't that much money. It is a lot don't get me wrong, but there are plenty of folks walking around from the dot com days with that kind of cash. They are keeping the Tahoe real estate market alive and well to this day. I think the question, 'I have 11.5 million, I am 35, can I retire?' isn't that nuts. I wouldn't doubt it if Joel does have 11.5 million the bank. Look what was going on in the industry. The MS options alone could have been worth that. Add to that a couple other dot com gigs at the executive level and you've got the makings for retirement, or the ability to fund your own start-up company in NY. |
| Sat 05 Jun | Alex | I thought bank interest in the US was around 4-5% a year? |
| Sat 05 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | I think Joel blew his MS option when he quit and moved to NY. I'm sure he said somewhere that it was the best $7 million he ever spent, as he met his boyfriend and all is rosy in Joel-land. |
| Thinking about old flames. | Wed 02 Jun | anon |
| Every day, i lose an hours (sometimes two) worth of work thinking about an old flame who disappered down the labryniths of London. A lovely girl who was my industrial Statistics insturctor. I mean, i was not after her and hardly met her. But i used to roam the halls looking for her and when i met her and she smiled, it used to keep me going for a few days. I mailed her happy birthday last december and she did not respond though we used to mail each other (not about love or anything though). I mean, i guess she has 1000 guys better than some losing bastard like me. I know this is stupid. But there was this thread about sex. This is strictly not about sex. But are there any folks who miss girls they worship and lose a few hours of work every day?. I mean the kind of girls you dont even dare going after, but simply keep on a pedestal and worship them forever. I think thinking about sex is far LESS painful than this. I mean, you dont worship folks you fantasize having sex with. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Matthew Lock | I thought this thread would be about old flame wars as in old trolls! Imagine my suprise. |
| Wed 02 Jun | no name | once i had a schizophrenic girlfriend, i miss her so much even after 2 years. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Ged Byrne | IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that stalking is illegal. |
| Wed 02 Jun | once upon a time | Man, You people have no imagination... OP, you cannot have fallen in love and not remember. Its just what it is. Losing a few hours a day, well that's a bit too much. You need to take that energy and do something more productive with it. Nevertheless, she haunts you. To a degree, that's OK. I'm haunted by ghosts - they'll never leave me, and I'd be worse off if they did (some people are going to take this literally, joy). Take a coffee break and mingle - or something - to break up your lost time. Write some poems - something interesting might pop out. |
| Wed 02 Jun | one meeeellion dollars! | It's not stalking if you have a camera -- that makes it papparazzi. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Ricardo Antunes da Costa | Anon, I know what you mean. There's this girl that works in the same floor than I, although in another company, that I've put in such a pedestal. Actually I've already asked her out, one year ago, but she said to me she was already beggining a relationship with someone else. But even today, sometimes I meet her on the hall, and she smiles, and I can't think of anything else for the rest of the day. And it's true, you don't worship who you fantasize having sex with. I fantasize having sex with other girls, but not with her. I thought I was the only wacko to do that, but I'm glad I'm not. :-) |
| Wed 02 Jun | Not a wacko | 'I thought I was the only wacko to do that, but I'm glad I'm not' At least we have a consensus that you both are wackos. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Fire up! | Anon: If she has noticed your timid but obsessive interest, then yes, she is repelled and disgusted. She will not sleep with you in a million years. The good news is, who cares? Your idolized girl is a human being, and when she craps, she stinks up the toilet. And there are gazillions more equally great and attractive women out there. Meet them. http://john-ross.net/abby.htm |
| Wed 02 Jun | Smith | Watch this and it will make more sense: Chasing Amy http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118842/ |
| Wed 02 Jun | yet another anon | Anon, your best course of action is to get a girlfriend. Having a tangible love interest will get rid of your longing for the intangible. |
| Wed 02 Jun | De Napolli Ponty | Move on, move on, move on. get a life, move on........ |
| Wed 02 Jun | - | Another film to consider: Swingers. I think it's probably redundant to point out that losing a couple of hours a day thinking about someone you passed in a hallway is unhealthy. You should probably go and talk to a professional about this. Putting women on pedestals is a way of creating an excuse not to chase them. If you were to find out that they don't want you, by default she falls off the pedestal; if they do want you, they are guaranteed to fall off the pedestal (she'll have flaws -- everyone does). If you believe that only flawed women will like you, then you need to work on your self-image. When I broke up with my previous girlfriend, I would spend quite a bit of time thinking of her and feeling sorry for myself. This lasted about 6 months. Then things got easier, I got a new job, and started to regain my self-respect. Once I'd become happy being myself and confident again, I found that I started to meet women without trying too hard. Here are some suggestions: + Make yourself feel better: clean your house, start eating better, take regular exercise that you enjoy (try a martial art with mixed classes) + Go and talk things over with a professional; I did about 5 sessions, and it did help. + If you don't like your job, find one that will make you happy. + Give yourself some time; don't feel bad that you are single. + Let your friends know you are on the lookout -- especially any female friends who can arrange blind dates. + When you go on dates, consider them practice for the real thing (rather than the 'be all and end all'), tell yourself that it doesn't matter, be yourself (MOST important), and have fun. Good luck. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Michael Eisenberg | Please don't feed the energy beast. |
| Wed 02 Jun | anon | Ok. 1-2 hours are probably exagerrated. Maybe i think for say 20-30 mins. i mean noot continoously, but bursts. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Jason | 'I mean, i guess she has 1000 guys better than ...' These types of statement makes me believe that mankind is on the verge of total degeneration. What kind of crappy attitude is that? Dude, you have already got a lifetime membership at Losers Inc. because of that attitude of yours. Congrats mate! |
| Wed 02 Jun | Should be working | No one is worthy of worship. We all stink up the toilet when we take a shit, we all get angry and say (or do) things we don't really mean, we all have a dark side (although many of us suppress and deny it). Your 'pedestal girl' might enjoy pickpocketing. Maybe she gets a kick out of flirting with losers she'd never in a million years date -- just to torture them. Perhaps she picks her nose. And eats it. You're indulging in escapism. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, we all do it to one extent or another. And the nice thing about fantasies is they are perfect. Nothing ever has to go wrong in a fantasy. No embarrassing moments, no angry words, no hurt feelings, no awkward silences. If you want, you can be perfectly happy living in your perfect fantasy for the rest of your life. Thing is... you can hide from reality, but you can't escape it. So, you might as well deal with it. Sometimes it's ugly, occasionally it's brutal. It's also lovely, wonderful and vibrant. |
| Wed 02 Jun | no name | Every autumn the chill in the air and the gradual bareness of the trees evokes memories of a passionate flame early in my career. She was beautiful and smart. Job moves took us apart and then it just gentled away. We stayed good friends but that was all. Every autumn. |
| Sat 05 Jun | RP | This is probably the most delete-worthy thread of all times. |
| C++ or Java ? | Tue 01 Jun | Arti Shah |
| Hello, I am a software developer with about 6-7 years of development experience in the private sector. Most of that has been with C/C++ development in both Windows and Unix platforms. I did a little bit of Java but not much. After a layoff, I recently took a position in a Govt agency where I am doing development with the following technologies : Java, JSP, Servlets and Weblogic. My thinking was that learning these new skills would round off my skill set as I see a lot more posts with Java (or Java + C++) than C++ alone. However I recently see some openings in a financial software company for C++ (MS shop only with MFC and VC++) which I could qualify for. My current dilemma is this : Should I continue in the current position or should I try for the C++ opportunity at the private firm ? On one hand, the salary at the private firm is obviously better than my current position. But I worry that I will then lose the chance to pick up Java and web-based technologies and make myself less marketable in the long-term. What do you all think ? Do you see a contnuing bright future for C++ ? I appreciate your giving a response. Thanks, AS |
| Tue 01 Jun | . | There are far more positions in Java/.NET than C++. On the flip side, there is dramatically more "qualified" applications for the former than the latter, and I've noticed a trend lately that the C++ are getting extremely lucrative (while the "struts Java programmer" is becoming a low paying position). |
| Tue 01 Jun | AEB | Pick whichever job is better, irrespective of the programming language. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Sassy | Learn both. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Craig | Java is the new VB, it's popular now, loads of jobs. But C++ is not going anywhere. Products tend to go though a few of phases. 1. Lets code like hell in (VB/Java) and get the thing out the door. 2. Product becomes successful. 3. Customers want scalability and multiple platforms. 4. Product get slowly re-written in C++. Learn both, picking up Java is about knowing the API's rather than syntax. Don't listen to the C++ haters, just look at KDE, Adobe, Maya etc... |
| Tue 01 Jun | AllanL5 | Stick with Java for now. With your '6 to 7 years' of experience in C++, and with the next few years of Java, you will have credibility in both. If you go to C++ now, I believe it is true you will miss the Java tide, and be stuck should C++ become a legacy language. Certainly, most new technology development is focussed on Java at this time. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Andrew Burton | Government jobs have better benfits packages as well as retirement plans. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Li-fan Chen | Why are financial firms demanding C++? Just curious. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Bill Rushmore | Go for the job with more moeny. I wouldn't worry about shutting the door on Java experience. C++ is going anywhere soon. Besides me as a Java programmer, if I was going to hire a someone i would consider C++ experince with a little Java as an asset, not a liabilty. |
| Tue 01 Jun | T. Norman | 'Why are financial firms demanding C++? Just curious.' Most likely because that's what their 10-year-old system was written in. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Timothy Flechtner | I work at a trading firm. The traders do not like the applications written in Java; they don't like the time they take to load, or the non-native feel of swing. Also, speed is of the essence. Java is not slow, but its tough to beat c++ performance, at least in any language that doesn't make my brain leak out my ears. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Chris Kessel | >4. Product get slowly re-written in C++ Heh, places I've been are the exact reverse. Replacing aging C++ systems with Java rewrites, often incorporating a web interface for an old thick client interface. |
| Tue 01 Jun | Tom Vu | >>Why are financial firms demanding C++? Just curious. Working with realtime data feeds and number crunching requires performance and C++ gives it. These are not enterprise IT CRM apps. These are for a trading desk handling a lot of money where speed and reliability is critical. The firm I work for got rid of java and use primarily C++. |
| Tue 01 Jun | SNT the evolution of RMS | ' These are not enterprise IT CRM apps. These are for a trading desk handling a lot of money where speed and reliability is critical. The firm I work for got rid of java and use primarily C++.' so much for don't worry about speed, Moore's law will cover your ass. No matter how much computing power we have we will never abstract all computing away to a high level. It's the need, the need for speed. So, assembly, C and C++ are safe for the next 30 years. We'll just learn not to turn them into such security holes. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Julian | Which language you enjoy more should also be a consideration. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Alex | >> so much for don't worry about speed, Moore's law will cover your ass. It's not about Moore's law at all. A competitor could be writing the same thing in C++. Speed-wise, that's a competitive advantage over Java/.NET, no matter what the state of the art is. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Craig | >> so much for don't worry about speed, Moore's law will cover your ass. Thats what my boss thought about his wonderful VB server applications , just 'throw more hardware at it mate!'. Now I get to re-engineer them in C++, he gets to pay me. |
| Wed 02 Jun | one programmer's opinion | When it comes to developing business applications for a living, I believe that marketability is the most important consideration you need to be mindful of. I vote for staying with the government job for now. IMO, having a year or two of PAID Java server programming experience on your resume will make you more marketable. In the future, if you can't find/obtain a corporate job developing enterprise apps in Java or C++ you should still look attractive to smaller companies due to your previous C++ programming language experience. |
| Wed 02 Jun | Furious George | Think not about learning Java or C++, but learning a vertical market: finance or government. If you can handle C++ then learning Java won't be too much of a problem. There is also a possibility that the financial company may start projects with java: and it will probably be real-time multi-threaded interesting java, rather than web-app boring java. FG |
| Wed 02 Jun | Billy Bob | They both are bad |
| Wed 02 Jun | Jim Rankin | Just remember, there are millions of people in the third world learning 'marketable' technologies at a rapid rate. Get in a position where your vertical market knowledge and ability to communicate with management and users on-site makes you difficult to replace by someone in a place with a drastically lower standard of living. Finance may be a good place to establish those skills. On the other hand, politics may make it more difficult to replace a government employee with someone working off-shore. |
| Sat 05 Jun | emacsdude | >> so much for don't worry about speed, Moore's law will cover your ass. Moore's law doesn't help memory speed which is more bound by the speed of light than and high cost of delivering bandwidth to the CPU. So actually, Moore's law excarebates the problem - by making the CPU faster, the memory becomes a more dominant fraction of the runtime. So...you need to optimize for memory usage. Oh wait -- that's hard to control on Java and other managed run-times. Better stick with C++ for performance. Moore's law won't save you. |
| Title of Book on Motivation | Fri 04 Jun | Steve |
| I just spent an hour unsuccessfully googling (including this site) for the title of a book that I think was referenced here a month or so ago. It was a compendium of psychological studies in motivation. I believe it highlighted peoples need for choice, challenge, control in their lives. Any idea what this title is? Id like to buy it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | "Personal Power" by Tony Robbins. |
| Fri 04 Jun | CF | Was it called Taking Care of Business? http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=113321&ixReplies=24 |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matt H. | 'Punished by rewards: The problem with A's, Praise, Gold Stars' and something else. By Alfie Kohn? Probably not the right book, but it's got overlap ... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Steve | > Punished by Rewards That's it! Thanks! |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | What's the problem with gold stars? Does it have to do with the bar of perfection being too low? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wally | "1984". |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kyralessa | Read the book and you'll find out. (I'm about halfway through, and it's excellent. The books' arguments aren't just idle musing, either; he backs them up with real-life studies.) |
| what do you do when people talk behind you? | Fri 04 Jun | rich on the run |
| Im sitting in a cubicle near the door to the hallway. Just about everyday 2 or 3 people stop right behind me and start talking loudly. Seldom does it have anything to do with work. I try to make it obvious that its very distracting, but they never notice or simply dont care. It pisses me off, 1 that they do it and 2 that the people who do it have an office with a door not 10 steps away. What would you do? |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | YOU DAMN IT COMPLAINER! THERE ARE PEOPLE WORKING IN SWEATSHOPS IN ASIA! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe Blandy | Well, what do they do when people are talking behind them then? Sheesh. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | They eat them for dinner and call it tasty, because it's the only meal they get all day AND YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SOUR MILK YOU UNGRATEFUL BASTARD!!!!! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | In what ways do you make it obvious? Tut, huff and puff = not obvious 'Excuse me, could you talk somewhere else because your distracting me' = obvious. |
| Fri 04 Jun | _ | Scream obscenities... but that's me. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | and you know what? they're always business people. i hate uneducated, ignorant, rude business people. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Donnie G. | I bring in a boom mox and play annoying rap music. When I get asked to turn it down, I say 'take it up with the boss'. When boss comes by, I say 'drowning out he noise of their yakking is the only way I can get any work done, boss." At this time, boss tells them to keep it down. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | I had that once. I was trying to get some stuff done onsite at a client's office and was unfortunate enough to be sharing the open plan office with a couple of women who exercised their extremely loud voices and laugh all day, mostly talking about soap operas and how to cook potato wedges. I sent an email to the project sponsors stating that it was impossible to work there and that I was going home for the day (it was only mid-morning). Strangely, the next day I had a call to say that they had set up a nice quiet, private office for me to use. The moral of the story is, if you don't complain to the right people, nothing will ever change. Just complaining in general makes you look like a loser. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Just fart real loud. That should do it. Repeat if necessary. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mark Hoffman | Some interesting, albeit self-destructive, advice given here... Is it too hard to just stand up, tell them that they are distracting you and politely ask them to take their conversation elsewhere? |
| Fri 04 Jun | rich on the run | right, tutting, huffing and puffing are ineffective. When I asked, perhaps not as politely as I could have, but not rude either. I said "This conversation doesn't really involve me and I'm trying to concentrate on something and it's really hard, can you please talk somewhere else?" I was scolded. "That was a deputy division director we were speaking to and that wasn't a good thing to say to him". |
| Fri 04 Jun | I feel your pain | We maintain office space at one of our (more important) client sites. We have a couple offices with a door. Nearly every day that we are in the office, one of our client's staff will decide to come to talk to us (in one of our offices). Unfortunately, our offices are near the front door, and across from the board room. Inevitably, someone on the way to or from the washroom or a meeting will see this staff member (who is already interrupting...), remember that they must speak to them right *now*, and start having a meeting in our office. We usually say something along the lines of 'please have your meeting in another room since it is very difficult to concentrate on our work while you are talking'. Which almost always ends with the original person saying: 'oh, but I was coming to talk to you...' Net Result: Complete distraction. And said client wonders why we often have the door closed or work from another location... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Cubist | Nothing will help. People talk loudly so everyone can hear their keen insights and what a great job they're doing, and the more cubes around and the more crowded the area, the more likely they are to talk only there. |
| Fri 04 Jun | son of parnas | Put up a sign. Email them politely. Ask to be moved. Listen to music. Record their conversations and put them on the intranet :-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | O Canader | Depends on your relationship/statuswith and in the company. Personally, I just tell them that 'people are trying to work around here' or (more fun) 'get a room'. They generally get the hint that they are disrupting us. I doubt that this would work everywhere but it works for me. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | You put a mirror on the floor behind you and look up their skirts. This never fails, though it will get you the reputation of being weird, and if caught arrested. Alternatively, you could just ask them to go away, give you some peace, or whatever mild rebuke you think of. There is on surefire way of not having it happen though and that's to open a thread on here asking people about it and expecting anything sensible. |
| Fri 04 Jun | x | 'That was a deputy division director we were speaking to and that wasn't a good thing to say to him'. ' Deputy Division Director? LMAO!! Well, golly gee Yogi, looky there..It's the Deputy Division Director! What a stupid title. Anyway, you should have reminded Mr. Deputy Tiny Penis that while his conversation might have been important, someone such as enormously powerful as a Deputy Division Director surely has a private office where he can spin tales of fighting villians all day long. You, on the other hand, are just a peon and you need some quiet and would like The Supreme Deputy to take his banter elsewhere. |
| Fri 04 Jun | De Napoli Le fou Hawari | >Just fart real loud. That should do it. Repeat if necessary. I concur with th epersone who said the above statement. Make sure you eat boilled eggs and lots of bean ...lol.. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kevin Kershaw | Kick him right between the knees. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | I had this problem at my last job. There was one person in particular (the CFO, in fact), who was like a bull in a china shop. And all her people worked down the hall from her, so they would constantly be holding conversations in common space, or worse yet, shouting down the hall at each other. On many occasions I had to politely ask her to keep the noise level down, after her conversations had gone on for several minutes. Once I also kindly reminded her that she had an office, with a door, whereas I and others working in the common space did not. I spoke to my boss about the ongoing problem as well. The end result of my efforts? Absolutely nothing. Except that she decided to think I just didn't like her, which created tension, which actually caused me not to like her. In the end, I left because the work environment was so displeasing (due partially to that, but also because of other issues). Much happier now :) If you've tried all of the above with no success, you might try talking to your HR person. This kind of thing (work environment issues and employee relations) is exactly what they are there for. In my case it didn't help, because it was a very small company and the political quagmire was dumbfounding. But it may work for you. However, be prepared for some lashback: you'll be pegging the individuals in question as chatty and unproductive, which they won't be thanking you for ;-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Ged Byrne | Why didn't you say so. If it was somebody as important as the deputy division director what you should have done was make them coffee and offer to clean their shoes. Personally I like the senior management to have their day to day meetings out in the open. That way, when they do huddle into an office and close the door you know that redundancies are coming. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | 1. Mark the times of the beginning and the end of the conversation 2. Add 15 minutes (see Peopleware) 3. Multiply this with the number of employees in the same room (except those who are talking) 4. Multiply the sum with (average vage + overhead) 5. Create a huge banner: 'Congratulations! The company just lost $xxxx.xx' |
| Fri 04 Jun | Katie Lucas | Very simple solution: Join in. They look at you funny to start with. But after a while they'll either learn not to have conversations there or to value your input. It's no use asking them not to. They'll have some perfectly rational explaination as to why they have to have it there. Or they'll huff themselves up and be More Important than you. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | The best suggestions are Katie's, above, to join in, and Steve Jones' heading home and leaving the reason. The first confronts the arrogance and attempt to assert power that's involved in having a meeting in someone else's work space. It forces the participants to accept the speaker as an equal or be explicit that they're asserting power, which can't be done politely. Hence it deters them from holding meetings in that location. The second imposes a cost on the loud talkers, since they may be held accountable for the changed work situation of the programmer. This forces them or management to explicitly claim superior status, which can't be justified just for a meeting. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | If only going home and leaving a note were that easy :( I think I'd have gotten in much worse trouble for that than the co-workers who were being inconsiderate, heh... Joining in is a good suggestion though... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alyosha` | What the hell? What is the big frickin' deal with asking (nicely) if they could shut the door, talk quieter, or move the conversation? It's worked every time I've tried it. People don't hold discussions in the open just out of malice; they simply aren't aware that they're bothering anyone. So make them aware -- politely. They'll stop. Really they will. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sassy | Thow something at them, preferably water, food, or excrement. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | Alyosha, not all workplaces contain well meaning professional people like Microsoft. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | What? Alyosha`, do you work with Microsoft? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wally | Air horn. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Cubist | 'People don't hold discussions in the open just out of malice; they simply aren't aware that they're bothering anyone' No, they DO know it, and they do it because at that moment they think their conversation and their world is very important to the business and other people in the area should be aware of it. |
| Whats up with the lousy image on JOS? | Fri 04 Jun | Joel on Photography |
| What exactly is that picture of on the main page? I see an assortment of cars, possibly some buildings but I cant tell, some fuzzy mountains in the background. And whats that thing on the far left side of the image? A tree? Its not an interesting composition in the least (Typical half-sky, half-earth landscape photo: boring) Could the lighting have been any less appealing? Dull, muted tones on a scattered, confusing landscape. Ive seen Joel take some decent pics, but this sure as heck aint one of them. Why put it on the front of the site? |
| Fri 04 Jun | _ | The picture is indicative of Joel's current state of mind. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) | Perhaps it is the view out the window of the mental health institution that Joel has checked into. If so, I would find that particularly ironic: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2004/04/22.html |
| Fri 04 Jun | Estudiantin | It ain't all that bad, I tell you. I discover many of the pictures I take turn out to be like that. May be he was trying to capture a subtle element that did not come accross that well. |
| Fri 04 Jun | christopher baus (www.baus.net) | Ahh home... |
| Can I use a byte array for sound files? | Fri 04 Jun | Estudiantin |
| I am using MCI (winmm.dll) to read, record and playback sound. For now, I am doing this with disk files instead of realtime doing it straight from the memory. If I want to stream/relay/transmit this sound (file) on a Windows socket (not using FTP but TCP), can I read the file into a byte array? Because if it is possible then I can send it on the socket but the problems I foresee are: How will I repack it into the file. Will just reading back the byte array into a file with the same extention work? I mean, say, I have a .wav file and I read that into a byte array. Then I prefix some header of my own containing the file name, the type and size etc. and send this message on a socket, then at the other end, I read this header and the following byte array and read it back into a file with the same name and extention, will it be okay or itll just be gobbledegook? How do they stream sound on the Internet otherwise? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Guy LeDouche | Why don't you try your plan and see what happens. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Get a copy of the API-Guide from AllAPI.net. They have a VB code sample on playing audio from memory. The API calls, IIRC are, waveIn* and waveOut* |
| Fri 04 Jun | Zekaric | http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ I found this place some time ago. They had a sample code about playing a sound file from raw data I think. Maybe check it out. |
| Evolution of a programmer | Fri 04 Jun | CF |
| Came across this last night, thought it would be a good Friday post http://www.marica-iztok.com/jaro/The%20Evolution%20of%20a%20Programmer.htm |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alex | Guru Hacker % cat Hello, world. ^^D ------------------------------ How come this works? Does it reuse some buffer, or cat prints 'Hello world' by default, or what? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Michael Popov | > How come this works? Does it reuse some buffer, > or cat prints 'Hello world' by default, or what? 2-4 fingers, some memory and stdout |
| Fri 04 Jun | Eli Bendersky | Alex, If you just bang 'cat' at a terminal, it will wait for input from stdin (that's you), terminated by a ^d. Usually, it's used like this: >> cat > somefile I type this and press ^D >> cat somefile I type this and press |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Though funny, is it not the whole purpose of the "Hello world" app to explore and show all the capabilities of a language? |
| Fri 04 Jun | A.T. | No, it's to illustrate everything you need to do to make a program *except* for the code itself. How to open the IDE and compile a program, the mandatory headers such as the unix #! and main() etc. |
| Fri 04 Jun | matt | I'd like to see the J2EE version of hello world on there. |
| Fri 04 Jun | CF | Matt: Ask and you shall receive. Developing and testing a complete J2EE 'Hello World' app with WebSphere Studio V5 and also this blog entry: Hello Cruel World |
| Fri 04 Jun | CF | Damn not thinking before posting HTML.... |
| Fri 04 Jun | G | 'How come this works?' If you have to ask, you are obviously not at the Guru level yet. |
| SQL Editor | Fri 04 Jun | Vladimir Lutuima |
| Hello everyone I was looking for a decent SQL editor. Something to use with several database engines and that allowed me to write SQL code the same way I write Java or C++ code. Ok, Im looking for IntelliJ for SQL. Any ideas? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | WinSQL is okay. http://www.synametrics.com/SynametricsWebApp/WinSQL.jsp |
| Fri 04 Jun | Philo | Try UltraEdit - it's not quite an IDE, but might do what you want? (note: it does its autoformatting based on file extension, and you might have to grab a SQL keyword file from the website) Philo |
| Fri 04 Jun | GG | On that note, anyone know decent open-source library that would help with generating SQL. |
| Fri 04 Jun | brian w | If you have budget and are using oracle, sql server, or sybase check out sql programmer from bmc and cast sql builder from cast software. Both are nice tools. |
| Fri 04 Jun | sethx9 | Toad - much more than an editor and works across all the major engines. If you don't need all that... Visual Slick Edit - MUCH more powerful than UltraEdit (I jumped ship last year when I saw a co-worker doing things in VSE and realized UE would probably never be that flexible). VSE has code hints (a la 'Intellisense'). |
| Aeron Chair | Fri 04 Jun | Steve Jones (UK) |
| At last, I have taken the plunge and bought one of Herman Millers Aeron chairs (model C, fully loaded). Ive had it for a few days now and I must say that it has been exceptional. It is, of course, very easy to adjust in numerous ways and now that Ive got it set up just right, its amazing. I guess 1000 USD (equiv) is a lot for a chair, but IMHO it is worth every cent and Id recommend it to anyone who can get their hands on one. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Len Holgate | Agree 100%. Had mine for 3 years or so now, well worth every penny. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | We had them at Credit Suisse. They are really comfy but the mesh wears your pants out really quickly. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | I hope you're American, Matthew. Or Superman. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | Ummm what do you do in your chair Matthew to cause such friction? On second thoughts don't answer that... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | Isn't that how all the best programmers code? 'In 1960, software development meant a roomful of men with horn rimmed glasses and narrow black neckties, industriously writing ten lines of code a day on IBM coding forms. In 1980, it was a team of eight to ten people wearing jeans to the office and typing into vt100s. Now it's a couple of guys sitting in a living room with laptops. (And jeans turn out not to be the last word in informality.)' |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | http://www.paulgraham.com/road.html |
| Fri 04 Jun | Clay Whipkey | We had those chairs at a previous employer, and I don't get the hype. Maybe I just never adjusted it right, but I didn't notice anything in particular about it that was any more comfortable than the chair I just got at Office Max for $60 USD. Even if I did adjust it better, the difference would never be worth over $900 extra. |
| Fri 04 Jun | TheNakedGuy@cory.berkeley.edu | They also pull out the short hairs. Ouch! |
| Fri 04 Jun | matt | As far as overpriced task chairs go I like the Swopper. |
| Last word on pointers from me | Fri 04 Jun | Noob |
| During my now infamous post on pointers ( http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=146744&ixReplies=49 ) Kyralessa posted a link to this tutorial http://pweb.netcom.com/~tjensen/ptr/pointers.htm . Now I grok pointers. Now I know what pointer arythmetic is. I started to translate the tutorial to my mutter sprache and things began to click. From now on, when in doubt, translate. |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | >> During my now infamous post on pointers ===== Don't fool yourself kid, your post is only one of hundreds on this board that address the very same topic. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Ain't that correct? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Michael Kale | >> Don't fool yourself kid, your post is only one of hundreds on this board that address the very same topic. Well, not everyone (claims to?) have 11.5 million in the bank to use as a memorable post. ;-) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | And as long as you're translating tutorials, you should send the Übersetzung back to the original author, in hopes that he will kindly post the alternate language version(s) as well... |
| Fri 04 Jun | Noob | That is one hell of an idea. Just don't forget they're not in german - it's not my mother tongue. I just feel special when I speak german :)))) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | ditto :) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Kyralessa | So what's your mother tongue? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Noob | Português. |
| Getting a client to pay | Fri 04 Jun | Vince |
| Two of my friends recently did a side project for a small client. Abrubtly, out of the blue, when the project was 90% completed, (and barely over budget) the contract was "terminated", and the companys owner sent an email saying "he wont be paying most of the cost since the project wasnt completed nor was it to his satisfaction". There was a contract, and he/the company owes them around 8k. Ive never had to deal with a situation like this. Usually I only have to huff and puff and clients eventually agree to pay, if they even complain at all. Both my friends are in their early twenties, so age may have a factor in it. Is it worth it for them to hire a lawyer? Should they just take the loss? I know they should have not given any of the code until payment, but sometimes thats not always possible. Thanks in advance. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | It is always possible to withhold code until payment and that's what experienced people do. There's a standard procedure. 1. Always require payment of 25 to 50 percent before starting. That ensures they're serious and will pay, and commits them to working with you (once they've paid you something, there would be a cost to turf you out and start with someone else.) 2. Get regular payments. If they're not forthcoming, stop work. 3. Give the impression that a) you're not dependent on a single client and b) you can afford to wheel in a lawyer if necessary. In your current situation, yes, go see a lawyer. You can probably establish via emails or other documents that there was a contract ( this doesn't have to be written down) in which your lawyer can calmly give them the choice of paying $8,000 now or $50,000 in three months time. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | You can probably establish via emails or other documents that there was a contract ( this doesn't have to be written down) in which case your lawyer can calmly give them the choice of paying $8,000 now or $50,000 in three months time. |
| Fri 04 Jun | MSHack | Would you give me $1000 to get $8000? That is the real question. Of course it is worth it. In addition, he can fashion a contract for them in the future. The mistake I see made, especially by new contractors is they do not want to create a problem by asking for a client to sign a contract. It's only business and a client unwilling to agree to terms in advance is a client that is going to be a problem. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | Get some friends who are really good with steal pipes and pay a courtesy visit to the faithfull customer. Don't forget the ski masks. |
| Fri 04 Jun | RP | steel pipes. I didn't meant for you to steal the guy's pipes, just break his kneecaps. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Simon Lucy | Stealing his pipes, especially if he has a very good collection of pipes, may well be more productive than stealing his knee caps. Giving back bits of severed anatomy is tricky. Personally, I'd use a lawyer, which is considerably more hurtful in the long run for them. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Recycler | Go ahead, steal his pipes. Assuming they're copper, the recycle fees will more than pay for your lost $8k. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Herr Herr | Sort it out if you can by daily pestering, calling a lawyer, withholding code. You still may have to write off some or all of the money, though. More importantly learn from this. Do better next time with the contractual and invoicing side of things. Many small businesses get into this situation. The good ones only let it happen once. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John C. | Go talk to a lawyer. Might not cost you anything just to bat around the issue and get an estimate on various options. A "you owe my client money" letter on law firm letterhead might be enough to show the customer that you're serious and convince them to pay up. |
| Fri 04 Jun | son of parnas | Agree with the first poster on how it should be done. You'll need to handle it better next time. People who don't pay already have lawyers and don't really care if one more piles on. They are expert at delaying and fending off creditors. If you have small claims court try that and get something back. |
| How important is job desc? | Fri 04 Jun | Big Ben Fro |
| In my office people complains that theres no formal job desc given to them. I personally dont think its that important as long as my yearly objective is clear and agreed by both management and me and in the performance review process it is judged objectively. My question: in your opinion how important is clearly defined job description? if yes, how detailed it should be? Regards |
| Fri 04 Jun | chance | 'as long as my yearly objective is clear and agreed by both management and me and in the performance review process it is judged objectively.' In my opinion detailed job descriptions are for those occasions you need to sort out what is your responsibility and what is not. In a goal driven environment as what you described, it has no real value, because you and the management agree to some mutual conditions describing your goals and level of authority in the process of achieving it. As long as it works, there is even no room for statements like 'heck! that's not even my responsibility!', which are the subject of formal job descriptions, usually. Regards, chance |
| Fri 04 Jun | ... | I think it's handy to be able to say, "Look, I'm doing things beyond/higher than my job description. Clearly I need a raise/promotion/staff of 100 to do my bidding" |
| Fri 04 Jun | Greg Hurlman | I would agree with the above posters, except for the fact that every job description I've ever seen says at the very bottom, 'and all other responsibilities assigned by management.' IMHO, that makes most job descriptions a fun toy for HR, but leaves them without any value (for the employee). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Rob | I believe in many jurisdictions at least in the U.S. there is a legal reason for job descriptions. So if you're hired as an engineer and you end up sweeping the floors, it's breach of contract and you can quit without having to repay relocation expenses, etc. |
| Forbes:Google's Mail Plans Call For Serious Storag | Fri 04 Jun | karthik |
| < |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | These guys sell an 'Exabyte Tape Backup Systems' http://www.penguincomputing.com/products/peripherals/exabyte.php but it only is actually 33Gb. To quote the Simpsons, that sounds like the greatest case of misleading advertising since the movie 'The Neverending Story'. |
| Fri 04 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | Google have a petabyte file system. See http://www.cs.rochester.edu/sosp2003/papers/p125-ghemawat.pdf |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | 'First time i heard of something called petabyte or exabyte.' there is a very nice presentation by Jim Grey on the evolution of datavolumes called 'The Personal Petabyte, the Enterprise Zetabyte' in which you will learn also about Zetta- and Yottabytes. Warning: link below is not direct since it is a 4.16 Mb Powerpoint file see http://research.microsoft.com/~Gray/JimGrayTalks.htm |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | --'but it only is actually 33Gb.'--- 33GB - pedantry has its place. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | I see you're back from the Mental Health Instituion. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Richard P | Keep in mind that they give you 1GB of *uncompressed storage space*, whereas they will likely be storing your email in a compressed format. Email compresses *very* well (especially with all the replies containing nearly the same exact text). |
| Run screaming into the night | Fri 04 Jun | Walter |
| Another reason I switched http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=21401332 900+ new viruses in 1 month |
| Fri 04 Jun | Baby | Switched from/to what? You know there are millions / billions of invisible real-life viruses / fungi spores, etc floating in every cubic foot of air. Does that make you scared? No - because your body has the defenses to stop all that. So just get a firewall and keep your anti-virus software up-to-date and you will be able to sleep, little baby. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Junichiro Kawaguchi | This being reason I swich to Mac. Virus painters not being as likely to do viruses for Mac as it being such less popular then Windows. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Chris Tavares | It's funny. Back in college (late 80's/early 90's) the macs on campus were always the ones getting hit with viruses. I guess the virus writers thought it was cool to infect macs or something. Now macs are sold on the 'and nobody writes viruses for them' argument. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | I think I am right in saying that if you keep you Windows upto date using Windows Update and have a virus checker there are no viruses that can get. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | No need for an AV. Windows Update, XP firewall, Mozilla. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'This being reason I swich to Mac. Virus painters not being as likely to do viruses for Mac as it being such less popular then Windows.' I think this is argument is getting old. Don't get me wrong - until recently, I used to say this was one of the reasons why I switched to Linux. However, I agree with the above posts that if you keep WinUpdate on auto, have a firewall, and an AV, you're pretty much covered. so, my reason didn't really make sense - considering I'm a home user, i.e., don't have a multitude of servers/desktops in a biz environment. After thinking a bit more on the subject, I came to this conclusion - I don't trust MS, and that invalidates WinUpdate on auto. So, right now I'm checking Mandrake, to decide whether I can trust them. So, if you manage your win box the way you're supposed to, you're pretty much safe - not 100% safe, because that's impossible, whether you're connected to the net with Windows or with ZX Spectrum :) If you do move away from Windows, that's because you don't want to properly manage your win box - it's your decision, and I'm not questioning it; after all, I took the same decision. The real question is - why? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Green Pajamas | So do you trust Mandrake? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | 'It's funny. Back in college (late 80's/early 90's) the macs on campus were always the ones getting hit with viruses. I guess the virus writers thought it was cool to infect macs or something.' Yep, I remember those days. You wouldn't dream of having a Mac without any AV back then. Mention it to PC people back then and they barely knew what you were talking about. It is a fashion thing. Mac virusses will start to get more press coverage again, and it is selfreinforcing from that point onwards. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Anyone on these boards know someone who writes those goddamned virues? What do they gain anyway? I am yet to see something as basic a motivator as, say, financial gain. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'So do you trust Mandrake?' No reason not to, so far. I've read they screwed up a few days ago with how much they charged some customers, but they admitted it right away, and started corercting it. Not a bad sign. Also, haven't seen any signs of product activation/drm, yet, and that is a good thing in my book. Let's see how long it stays that way. So far, they're exactly like MS was in the days of Win 3.1, with regards to my level of trust. I do have some reason to worry with regards to the software patent laws being voted for the EU (we're gonna joing the USA in the Patent Mess), but I'll worry about that when it happens. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Paulo Caetano | 'Anyone on these boards know someone who writes those goddamned virues? What do they gain anyway? I am yet to see something as basic a motivator as, say, financial gain.' According to what I've read, these last ones were aimed at getting zombies for spam. I'll bet someone made some money out of it. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | ----'No need for an AV. Windows Update, XP firewall, Mozilla. '------ So I just need to port CIH to XP to prove you wrong? |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Stephen, My colo server running Win2K does not run any AV. It has a firewall and is pretty well tuned. Been so for 2 years now. No virus. Ever. At all. Good administration and decent firewalls are sufficient to handle viruses. I do keep checking it thrice a day, either in person or through Terminal Services, but that is my job. My home box runs XP and all Internet accessing apps are non MS. Browser, Email, Media Players. Again 2 1/2 years. No AV. ADSL connection connected 18 hrs a day. No virus. Please do port CIH and let me learn the hard way. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | ---'No virus.'---- If you don't have an AV how do you know? At work I get fifteen emails a day with viruses attached. |
| Fri 04 Jun | . | Good point. Actually I did not tell the whole truth. I schedule, once or twice a month, on all my machines, a complete scan with Ad-aware, Trendmicros's online virus scan, along with disk cleanupm defrag and regclean. Being a SOHO, it is usually Saturday nights. Monday morning, more often than not, I get an all clear message from all of them. So far only the porn crap has been detected by them, and that was solely the fault of some members at work, not the protection (or absence of) system. My point is if one is carefull one need not be tied down by large memory hungry, application interfering AV running in the background. Not to mention the costs involved. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | I know it sounds horribly stupid to not be running AV software, but I actually have to agree. Viruses really only have two ways to propagate: either through unprotected internet-facing ports, or by a user downloading and executing something on the computer. Any $39.99 hardware firewall will stop the first group. And the second is a matter of social engineering -- don't open attachments unless you know what they are, double check the file extensions, don't download misc. shareware crap, etc etc etc. Now that may be a bit too much for Auntie Sue and Uncle Jack, so for them I say it's better to pay the $29.99 a year for Norton/McAffee. And business environments clearly need more protection as it's next to impossible to stop users from doing something stupid. But for me at home, I'd rather spend that money on something else :) |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | If you're really that cheapskate AVG is free. And the situation is a little like that with vaccination with real viruses. The fact that you don't get viruses is more because other people slow them down with anti-virus software, than the fact that you're safe. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mike | 'I do keep checking it thrice a day, either in person or through Terminal Services, but that is my job.' MCSB - Microsoft Certified Server Babysitter. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Joe | If we're going to compare to bio viruses, then I'd also like to point out that humans don't vaccinate against every individual virus out there, which is what AV software attempts to do. We also rely heavily on natural defenses to keep us safe -- skin, etc. That's what the firewall is all about, and keeping up to date on security patches. I'm not saying don't protect yourself...just that there's more than one way to do it. |
| questions to ask before accepting job | Thu 03 Jun | Jason |
| After a relatively short hunt, Ive gotten an offer. Im pretty interested in the job, but before I leave the place Ive been for seven years (and possibly burn some bridges), I want to be as sure as I can that its the right move. What kind of questions do you wish you had asked before accepting an offer? Could you have avoided a nightmare job or bad manager if you had done some more digging? I know theres no sure thing, but I want to do as much due diligence as possible. thanks |
| Thu 03 Jun | avoiding a nightmare job | You're asking whether I'm willing to work overtime sometimes. How many hours/week should I average? What's 'normal' here? Who defines the schedule, how? Who do I talk to if I'm becoming behind the schedule, and what might their reply be? |
| Thu 03 Jun | GiorgioG | Non-compete agreement? What about moonlighting/side-work? Why did the guy I'm replacing leave? (Assuming you're a replacement) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Philo | What are the purchasing authority levels? This can tell you a lot about a company - if the CEO has to approve every purchase over $50, that's a warning sign... Philo |
| Thu 03 Jun | Ian Olsen | If you haven't already met them, see if you can have lunch (or some other semi-casual setting) with your potential peers and immediate superior. It may sound odd, but you'd be surprised. A good employer is going to appreciate your effort to ensure you're a good fit. Over lunch, pay attention. How is the team dynamic? Do you mesh with it well? Most importantly, are they smart and capable? I've both accepted and rejected offers based on interaction like this, and still feel pretty good that they were all good decisions. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MrFancypants | "Do you press charges?" |
| Thu 03 Jun | http://badblue.com/blog | These are more generic to the company's overall health, but probably just as germane to your survival there: 1) What's the overall business outlook look like? 2) How are the products/service sold today? Which channels are growing and which are shrinking? How are those changes being addressed? 3) How often do we get to meet with the business-people to make sure we're designing/developing the right stuff? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Guy LeDouche | Really all of the above questions should be asked during the interview and workplace tour, not after. Especially if it's a large-ish company, you're probably only going to be dealing with HR at this point, and they won't know any of those. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | 'Can I get time off on and around (important family holiday)?' I left a job once because they wouldn't give me the time off (it was only three days, and one was already a holiday). I said, 'If I'd known from the beginning I couldn't get off for this holiday, I wouldn't have taken the job.' They replied, 'If that was a necessary condition for you to take the job, you should have mentioned it up front.' So now I do mention it up front. |
| Thu 03 Jun | x | 'Do I get a red stapler? A genuine Swingline?' |
| Thu 03 Jun | Anonx | All of the previous comments are excellent and are great questions to ask. Only problem is during an interview both sides are putting forward their best B.S. Go with your gut instinct. I ignored mine on my current gig and I am looking for a new gig only after 18 months after starting. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bella | What questions you ask also depend on why you are leaving your current job. And what parts of your current jobs you like and dislike. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Norrick | 'This can tell you a lot about a company - if the CEO has to approve every purchase over $50, that's a warning sign...' I see we've worked for the same companies, Philo. ;) |
| Fri 04 Jun | yet another anon | 1 - Ask if the company has had a history of layoffs. If so, find out what measures they took to avoid them (salary cuts, furloughs, etc.). Private companies are often better in this regard. 2 - Ask about the backgrounds of senior management. Are the top ranks filled with people that sales/marketing, finance, operations, or tech backgrounds? Are there any people with tech backgrounds in senior management? Sometimes, but not always, this will tell a lot about your status and how you will be treated in the company. 3 - Ask about team meetings, status reports, etc. This will tip you off to micro management or mushroom management (kept in the dark and fed shit). 4 - Ask about the last time they missed (or were on the verge of missing) a major milestone. Ask why 5 times. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Wisea** | "Are there any hot babes in the marketing department I can f*ck?!" :-P |
| Fri 04 Jun | one programmer's opinion | Jason wrote, 'What kind of questions do you wish you had asked before accepting an offer? ' Imo, when asking such a question you really should: * Provide more background about yourself such as the type of work experience you have (business app development - desktop/client-server/web applications, embedded, shrinkwrap). * Tell us what type of company is interested in interviewing you (a consulting firm, a large insurance company, a game company, an ISV, etc.). Jason wrote, 'Could you have avoided a nightmare job or bad manager if you had done some more digging? I know there's no sure thing, but I want to do as much due diligence as possible.' Here is what I did. I sat down and spent several hours compiling a list of questions that I POTENTIALLY want to ask the interviewer. My 'list of questions' vary depending on whom I am speaking with (an HR droid, a high-level executive, a hiring manager, a project manager, a developer, etc.) and the type of employment I am seeking (full-time vs. contract work). |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mark Pearce | Jason, How about this question: 'Would you like me to take a few minutes at your whiteboard to explain what I think are the challenges and problems you're facing in your business today, and then show you how I would tackle them to make your department more profitable?' For some interesting interview tips, see here: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/crocs.htm Regards, Mark ---- Author of 'Comprehensive VB .NET Debugging' http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=128 |
| Fri 04 Jun | Devil's Advocate | "What is your favorite software engineering text?" (for technical interviews) |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | 'Do I get a red stapler? A genuine Swingline?' Everyone in my office does actually have one. Great place to work! |
| Fri 04 Jun | hightequity | Ask how many developers they have, then ask how many designers and testers. If they say they are too "fast paced" and "innovative" to have dedicated designers/testers, run for the hills! |
| Fri 04 Jun | Guy LeDouche | 'Would you like me to take a few minutes at your whiteboard to explain what I think are the challenges and problems you're facing in your business today, and then show you how I would tackle them to make your department more profitable?' That will backfire. Nobody likes the new guy who comes in thinking he has all the answers, and wants to change everything. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Mark Hoffman | ''Would you like me to take a few minutes at your whiteboard to explain what I think are the challenges and problems you're facing in your business today, and then show you how I would tackle them to make your department more profitable' That would work fine if you are being hired to come in and solve those problems. Otherwise, you risk looking like the know-it-all type who likes to stick his nose in everyone else's business while ignoring the job you've been hired to do. If you're going to ask a question such as this, make sure the problems you are asking about directly relate to the job at hand. |
| what an article! | Thu 03 Jun | Mike |
| http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0422/040602_news_microsoft.php Some of the gems from the former Microsofter. Boy I bet I know what Scobles going to be doing tonight. I’m tired of spending the first 10 minutes of my day rebooting just so I can get to work. Microsoft Outlook 2003, the latest version of the company’s e-mail and calendar software, hangs for me about once a day, requiring me to restart my PC Matching Google’s brand development might be a greater challenge than matching the technology. Microsoft’s always been an uneven marketer, while Google’s already established itself in our consciousness. Google is a verb now. No kidding if Microsoft ran Google, it would have morphed to Google.net and now Googlehorn... while never gaining any real footing with any of them. Microsoft now faces a different kind of sloth. University of Baltimore law professor Robert Lande says, “Microsoft, like almost all monopolies, has become fat and lazy. Monopolies do not engage in innovation with the same urgency because they don’t have to innovate to stay in business.” Meanwhile, Microsoft doesn’t evoke passion in me anymore. Its products don’t excite me anymore. I remember eagerly looking forward to Outlook 2003, only to be disappointed by how complex, buggy, and unimproved it was. “There’s kind of an angst,” says Andrews, the Seattle Times columnist and author. “Microsoft ought to matter to us. There ought to be more of an intellectual and emotional connection. There just isn’t.” |
| Thu 03 Jun | I give up | Yawn - this Microsoft bashing is getting tedious... |
| Thu 03 Jun | Jeve Stobbs | Shut up, Bill, we know it's you. |
| Thu 03 Jun | karthik | Thank you for posting it Mike. Please be assured that this is very much welcome and your presence in this forum is a breath of fresh air. You are to this forum what Jeeves was to Bertie Wooster. Not tedious. Very valid points are being made here. How about a logical refutation of it?. My own Outlook crashes on XP atleast 2-3 times every week sometimes destroying my data sometimes. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Sassy | PR girl's Outlook just crashed and took her whole system with it. My work computer hangs or freezes on a daily basis. network connection drops out for no reason. No one can diagnose the problem. My Windows machine at home has decided to drop it's connection at will. No idea why or when this started happening. This is real. This is every day. |
| Thu 03 Jun | no name | Someone writes something somewhere, it gets on slahdot, after a length non-discussion there, it gets onto JoS, it generates another non-discussion, it moves around other blogs, it piques someone else's interest and someone else writes something somewhere else. Great! |
| Thu 03 Jun | Jason | Philo : Any defense for your master? |
| Thu 03 Jun | karthik | < |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mr Fancypants | I'm at a loss as to how to respond to some of the things that are stated in articles such as this. If he's really waiting anywhere near 10 minutes for his system to reboot and he's running XP, something is drastically wrong, or he's running on a P90 with 32 megs. I've never encountered anything like that. With NT4? Sure. With XP? No. Most of these 'Microsoft sucks' articles read as if the person hasn't actually used Microsoft products since pre-1998 or so, back when they really did have major problems. I'm not saying their products are perfect now, but in my honest opinion the quality and stability of Microsoft's software from the Windows 2000 era on is far higher than average for the industry. Ah well. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Myron A. Semack | 'My work computer hangs or freezes on a daily basis. network connection drops out for no reason. No one can diagnose the problem.' You either have faulty hardware or a buggy driver. Simply put, NT-based versions of Windows do not crash, unless you have faulty hardware or a buggy driver. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Enough already! | It just that everytime someone has a problem with Windows or other Microsoft product they say it is all Microsoft's fault and they stamp their feet and ask why don't they do something about it. Why don't you install Linux or get a Mac and if works better for you then great. Leave the bitching and complaining to yourself. I have been using Microsoft products since MSDOS 2.0 and haven't had any 'serious' problems. Your experiences obviously may vary. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Myron A. Semack | Regarding the article... The author makes a number of factually incorrect statements about computer architecture. This really makes his entire article questionable. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Myron A. Semack | Interesting rebuttal to the article. http://www.internet-nexus.com/2004_05_30_archive.htm#108627428196543323 |
| Thu 03 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | I don't recognise any of the things he describes in his opening paragraph. These passages caught my eye: 'Microsoft is so concerned about Windows XP security that it will likely give away its next upgrade to fix vulnerabilities and make it easier to deliver future fixes automatically.' It's a service pack. Service packs are free. 'To comprehensively address security issues, Microsoft has said it is building Longhorn from the ground up. Any time you start building an operating system from scratch, you create all sorts of unanticipated problems.' Eh? When have Microsoft said this? Any JOS'er knows that re-writing from scratch is a recipe for disaster and MS do too. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Linus Snorvalds | 'Any time you start building an operating system from scratch, you create all sorts of unanticipated problems' Yes, this is true. Linux is creating all sorts of problems for Microsoft. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dennis Forbes | This article does sound dated. I found Windows 2000 to be rock solid with half-decent drivers, and I have never, ever had a single lock-up or unpleasant event beyond the trivial on XP. Couple that with the fact that XP boots insanely fast and I really don't know where this is coming from. I will say that Outlook 2003 has unceremoniously dumped on a me a couple of times, but it's about 500ms until it's open again (and it has never corrupted data). |
| Thu 03 Jun | Almost Anonymous | I agree with Dennis (we agree on almost everything except Exceptions!) Windows 2000 and up are very solid operating systems. Very very solid. As solid as anything out there. Mac OS X, on the other hand, has been a lot less solid for me. For the time that I had a iBook I had nothing but problems. Can't blame the drivers for that... ;) |
| Thu 03 Jun | sedwo | Given enough time and energy, our computer technology *will* mature to great stability. Right now people quickly forget how incredible of a task it is to stabilize such a massive cohesion of PC's. And I applaud MS for aiding the progress into the level of usability we have today and no doubt into the future. Think others can do better? OSX: ha! Linux: ha! ha! Others: ha! ha! ha! There is a bigger picture here and while there is a case for everything and they all have their evils about them, let's not forget that worse people could have taken the helm. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Me | Personally I expect more from MS. They apparently hire only the finest (not me) and they are super rich, one would think their products would be better. However, I gotta say that my experience with XP and 2000 and NT before that was pretty darn good .. once I had good hardware (I take the lego aproach) I never got the BSOD which I'd get with NT and I never recall getting that with XP or 2000. At home I use a linux workstation. Guess what .... I manage to freeze my xwindows sessions (granted, I can usually then ssh in from another box and shut that down ) but I usually just reboot. I've even brough the box to a halt on the command line. And as better as all the GUI stuff has gotten it's still not as clean as the windows environment imho . |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mark Hoffman | Well, I use XP with Office 2003 and I have no problems with it. No hanging, no lockups. I'll go for days without rebooting and that's on my development machine. Not sure how people can say Microsoft doesn't innovate. They spend millions to keep the Microsoft Research Center running and their products are constantly changing and improving. That isn't to say that they couldn't do better, but I don't view Microsoft as sluggish, lazy company ala GM in the 60's. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Jeremy | Yeah, the author of the article demonstrates ignorance. But I agree with his central point that clinging to Windows and Office is holding Microsoft back in other areas. From my outsider's perspective it seems like MS is trying to figure out what to do once the Windows/Office revenue streams slow down. Of course I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to that because if they did they certainly wouldn't be telling people about it, they'd sell it themselves. |
| Thu 03 Jun | They don't | Microsoft is currently FIRE and MOTION and full FUD ahead. Gotta convince us all that they have what we want. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dr. Bashier | > Simply put, NT-based versions of Windows do not crash, unless you have faulty hardware or a buggy driver. Right, so which installations have the buggy drivers then, is it all of them? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | The author's article says he's a Mac user now. He sounds not unlike people who convert from one religion to another and in the process become convinced that there was nothing good about their old religion and there's nothing bad about their new one. I won't say Windows XP has _never_ crashed or blue-screened on me--I think it has once or twice--but it's phenomenally rare compared to Windows 98. And I also keep it free of spyware, viruses, etc., not through antivirus software but simply by not doing the things that let in viruses in the first place. It would be interesting to run Ad-Aware or Spybot on that guy's computer and see what might turn up that could explain the crashes. (I won't vouch for Outlook 2003, however, as I don't use it; for my e-mail and PIM data I use Outlook Express and Palm Desktop.) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Myron A. Semack | 'Right, so which installations have the buggy drivers then, is it all of them? ' Well, the easiest thing to do is run Memtest86 on the offending system. If it can't run >24 hours without Memtest86 throwing an error, then you have bad memory (or northbridge, or CPU). Of course, Memtest86 doesn't say anthing about the integrity of other compoenents (southbridge, video card, IDE controller, etc). The other thing to do is use WHQL drivers exclusively. If the piece of hardware you want to use doesn't have WHQL drivers, don't use it. Also, look at the minidumps when Windows crashes. That can help you pinpoint what it was that caused the crash. If they keep choking on the same routine over and over again, then odds are the driver has a bug. If it blue screens all over the place, then it's probably hardware. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Anonymouche | Like many said, any Windows 2000/XP workstation will not crash if you go to windows update frequently, have an antivirus, a firewall, and don't install some crap such as BonziBuddy or Anna Kournikouva nude screensaver.exe. Any employee in IT should know that. If this guy is a former Microsoft employee, I guess interviews to enter the company in 1991 weren't that hard. |
| Thu 03 Jun | saberworks | You guys who keep insisting that win2k and higher are so stable are completely missing the point here. Just because it's stable FOR YOU doesn't mean it's stable for everyone else. I have a brand new computer (p4 3.2ghz, 512mb of ram, intel onboard sound, geforce fx 5900) and I put win2k on it. I installed all the latest service packs and all the latest drivers for my video card, chipset, and onboard sound. I don't have ANYTHING special or strange on here. Guess what? win2k -still- crashes. So it may be a driver error - there is no note on what driver is making it crash. There is no reason why MS can't provide this information. Hell, half the time it just reboots without even an error message. Linux of course runs perfect and never crashes on this machine. So gimme a break with how stable it is - run a search on google and take a look at how many people are experiencing problems. It's NOT always user error - in fact, I'll guess that most of the time it's NOT user error. If windows was so stable that it 'never' crashes except for hardware errors or buggy drivers, why would MS have the 'report home' features? Why would they have tons of security bulletins and trouble-shooting information plastered all over their web site? You can't stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no problem. Well, I guess you can, but your denial doesn't make the problems go away for those of us experiencing these crappy crashes. Yes, I do use linux for my desktop. I boot to windows SOLELY to play games (and run windows update and download patches for said games). I was so convinced that it WAS my hardware problems/buggy drivers on the computer I built from scratch that I bought a prebuilt computer and didn't even do the windows install. I get the EXACT SAME crashes with the EXACT SAME error messages on completely brand-new and different hardware. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Jack of All | I've run MS OS's for the last 11 years. Yes, they crash, but they're getting better. In saying that for the last few years I've been running NT4.0, w2k and XP on my personal and work PC's and Servers and rarely have a crash. At work if the network goes down or there's an increase in traffic Outlook can drag it's ass, but rarely does it crash. I suggest that people look at little closer at what's running in the background, what their PC & Server specs are, and what their network traffic is like, because I don't get a 1/4 of the problems that everyone one else complains about and never so consistently. |
| Thu 03 Jun | wtf, computers of all types are our natural enemies | 'Yes, they crash, but they're getting better.'
come on people. The _real_ problem is that computers just plain dont work.
Windows? Linux? OSX? BSD? Debian? they all fscking crash.
All of them.
Is any particular one worse than any other? beats me, but the more you are doing with a particular operating system the more likely it is to crash.
OS's with desktops and in full use, crash way more often than computers that are used only as servers; they always have.
Use a windows computer to run nothing but the latest games and it will die 50x as often as if you ran nothing on it except SQL Server.
OSX 10.3 is less stable in my experience than 10.1 was just because apple are doing more and more things with it.
Debian is more stable than Redhat just because its used in different ways by different people.
I often run word on windows and things crash, OTOH I only ever run a browser on my wee linux box and it has never crashed in its life (although the browser itself regularly eats itself alive)
bottom line? they all crash, and if you are claiming that they do not you are lying, if you are claiming that one crashes more than another then the chances are good that you are just plain wrong.
the more complex the software you are running, the more likely a crash is to occur, regardless of the operating system running underneath.
|
| Thu 03 Jun | Stephen Jones | Dear saberworks, The rebooting is a setting. Go to System in control panel (or right click on my computer and choose properties) and then go to the Staru up and Recovery tab and choose advanced. You can then disable the setting. The reason for the crash will be in the system log, which is in event viewer, which you can access through Control Panel. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Myron A. Semack | Windows NT-based OSes are stable, this is an undisputable fact. The core OS is designed to be as robust as possible. Now, user mode applications can crash by themselves, but they can not bring the system down with it. If it really was as unstable as you immagine it to be, how on earth would it ever get deployed in server environments. Unfortunately, NO OS is immune to faulty hardware, and very few OSes can survive a buggy driver (QNX, and maybe HURD). Just because Linux works fine DOES NOT rule out the possibility of bad hardware. Until you have done proper hardware diagnostics (Memtest), you have NO way of knowing what caused the error. You can immediately jump to conclusions that it's Microsoft's fault, but until you have done some honest-to-god troubleshooting, you have NO IDEA what you system crashed. For the record, Windows DOES give you an explanation of what causes the error. Check the Event Log. You can also disable auto-rebooting on a fatal error. I have yet to see a single NT-based OS crash where the problem wasn't bad hardware or a buggy driver. You mention that you installed the latest drivers. Are they all WHQL? Did you build it youself, or is it from an OEM? Have you tested the individual components in other machines? What sort of QA was done on the machine? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Somorone | The only serious errors I get on Windows 2000 and higher are from non MS Office appz, third party applications and my damn nvidia graphics drivers. Without the nvdia drivers I could run Windows for weeks with out rebooting. Of course now and then I will do a control alt delete and end the explorer process and restart it. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mike | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=windows+nt+stability+issues&btnG=Search Yup NT is stable. 'I have yet to see a single NT-based OS crash where the problem wasn't bad hardware or a buggy driver. ' Should the people running servers that crash take comfort in that or switch to linux? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Henry F. | 'I have yet to see a single NT-based OS crash where the problem wasn't bad hardware or a buggy driver.' Well, I've seen several (including some very reproducible ones). Even so, wasn't it Andreessen who said (with only slight exaggeration) 'an operating system is just a bag of device drivers'? (In other news, I've never seen a Ford Pinto turn into a fireball of death, where the problem wasn't a bad fuel tank. That means they're safe, right?) |
| Fri 04 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | No Andreessen said that Netscape would reduce Windows to a collection of poorly-debugged device drivers. |
| Fri 04 Jun | no name | But Windows _is_... ohhhhh! |
| Fri 04 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | What? The most commercially successful operating system in history? The most widely-used PC operating system in history? |
| Fri 04 Jun | Stephen Jones | The normal cause of crashes in NT tends to be the video drivers. This is not because NVida writes buggy software but because they are the only device drivers allowed to directly access ring 0. Originally this was not so, but NT3.51 ran so slow as a workstation that the change was made for NT4.0. Because almost the same codebase is used for both server and workstations throughout the different versions of NT (Win 2k3 may by the first change in this respect- I don't have enough details), server stability was compromised for desktop performance. In Linux of course desktop performance/stabilty is compromised in favour of server stability. Now the Trojan horse of the video drivers can cause all sorts of nasties. My Win2K desktop system was trashed by the second VCD of 'American Beauty', and it required reinstalling a Ghost Image to bring it back to life (the only time in four years incidentally that I have had a serious fault). Also, other fatal errors can mean your system will reboot automatically or you see the BSOD or whatever. It certainly is a cop-out to claim that the problem lies with buggy device drivers and other programs - after all an OS is simply an interface for the hardware and software to react with the computer. The problem is whether the device drivers are what is buggy or the OS. It was certainly a year after Win 2K came out before I could get the machine to go into standby because of a confilict between Adaptec (now Roxio) software and the OS. The modem on my HP laptop (win XP Pro) used to force reboots almost daily until I upgraded. When your machine is on a corporate network then other problems come into play. My XP machine at work (Acer Veriton 2GhZ, 256MB RAM) regularly freezes for long periods of time and the only non MS software running is Symantec corporate anti-virus. As far as I can tell the problem appears to be programs not unloaded from memory so that eventually the computer is speinding all its time accessing the paging file. Sometimes a simple reboot does the trick, sometimes I have to wait for the weekend. The last time it more or less became unworkable for two hours, so I turned off indexing, set it to defrag C and went home early. It has been OK since, but I have no idea whether any action I took had any effect or not. Thinking of defrag made me go to computer management to check if this machine needs one. It has spent the last ten minutes not responding. Luckily I managed to get TasK Manager up quickly and it ended as it should, but the Computer Management console is hardly third party software. The truth is that this machine requires updating and Win 2K takes ages to boot, but the fear that if I install XP on a new machine it will start exhibiting the instablitly I see at work is what tips the balance over in favour of sticking with a four year-old machine. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Just me (Sir to you) | If the writer op the article has any IT experience, he is either knowingly distorting the truth or living in a parrallel universe. Having run dozens of different systems on NT4, W2K, XP and W2K3, I can honestly say that, with the exception of NT4 pre SP5, every single last crash (of only a handfull) could be retraced to a hardware problem (the single exception to this was a mysterious crash of an XP pro notebook, right after I installed the Java SDK and some very flaky Java app. I couldn't figure that one out, and it did not repaet itself). Now you can say that I am just lucky. Who knows, but then it is one hell of a streak. I am carefull in the selection of the HW and very conservative in drivers. After all, it is an open platform, so anyone is free to build some device for it no matter what their skill. Would you prefer it if it ran only on about 20 models of Microsoft PC's? Does this mean the OS is perfect? Of course it isn't. There are probably tens of thousands of bugs in it, just like in any piece of software that size and complexity. But on the right hardware, it runs very well indeed for millions of people. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Myron A. Semack | Mike, The ignorance of people who write web pages is not a substitute for real data. If you aren't running WHQL drivers, and you haven't tested your hardware, you can not rightly blame Windows for system crashes. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Dennis Forbes | Stephen: 'In Linux of course desktop performance/stabilty is compromised in favour of server stability.' Perhaps my recollection is wrong, but it is my knowledge that all device drivers in Linux run in ring 0. The Linux desktop experience isn't subpar because of this, but rather the chioces of windowing subsystems were suboptimal for local hardware. |
| Disk shredder / hard drive wiper reccomendations? | Thu 03 Jun | JWA |
| Hi All, I just sold a laptop, so before I ship it out I want to completely wipe the drive and restore it. Whats your favorite (preferably free) disk shredder now-a-days? In the past I used one that worked from a bootdisk and then wiped the drive clean, but I cant remember the name and looking through Google and Download.com nothing rings a bell. Thanks, --Josh |
| Thu 03 Jun | no name | Here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wipe/ This is what we used when I was on a joint DoD/DoJ project for the wiping of all storage media before it was allowed to leave the facility. It fulfilled all of DoD's, FBI's, and other participating organizations' requirements. |
| Thu 03 Jun | no name | I almost forgot.... we ran it five times over every piece of media. It took forever for bigger drives (80-120's), but only a few hours for smaller drives. |
| Thu 03 Jun | MSHack | If you have windows, I use Eraser. http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/ It also includes the ability to create a 'nuke' disk running EraseD. One of the things I like is you can schedule it to wipe your drive, just like a defrag. Any deleted files are always kept wiped. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mike | DBAN |
| Thu 03 Jun | old_timer | Yes, ERASER is good (and free) but if you set it to write too many passes it can take forever to do a whole disk. Set it at 3 overwrites and it's doable. |
| Thu 03 Jun | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | SDelete from Sysinternals: http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/source/sdelete.shtml |
| Thu 03 Jun | Curious George | Just curious - what is the point of repeatedly writing to the same spot? Doesn't the first write change the magnetic "image" on the hard drive making it impossible to read the previous contents. Or is there some kind of magnetic "residue" left over? Seems like overkill. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Caffeinated | Or is there some kind of magnetic 'residue' left over? Yup. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Caffeinated | 'Advanced forensic hardware recovery tools, may even restore overwritten files by analyzing latent magnetic traces.' from http://www.discountevidenceeliminator.com/file-deletion.htm |
| Thu 03 Jun | GUI Joe | The theory that one can recover the original data when it has been overwritten has been strongly discredited. Even an attempt to recover data requires that the investigator have access to a magnetic force scanning tunneling microscope -- and nobody has actually proved it can be done even with access to this exotic equipment. It's pointless doing more than one pass, unless you have secrets that the NSA would be willing to spend vast amounts of money and time on recovering that data (and assuming they have no other way to get the data). And if you do have such secrets to protect, you should be physically destroying and burning your used media (including HDs). |
| Thu 03 Jun | has | http://www.industrialtoolstore.com/c/Chainsaws/-154535.htm Shreds hard disk, laptop, desk, and most of your floorboards too... swee-eet! ;) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Robert Jacobson | Thanks for the info, GUI Joe. The whole 'latent magnetic traces' theory has always seemed a bit tinfoil-hattish to me. Does anyone know whether a full reformatting of a hard drive is sufficient to erase the data? My understanding is that during a full reformat, the hard drive overwrites each sector with dummy data, and then reads that data back to ensure that the sector isn't corrupt. In theory, it seems like this process should wipe any preexisting data on the drive. (This is in contrast to a quick format, which just erases the directory structure and leaves the original data intact.) |
| Thu 03 Jun | Stephen Jones | If you're anywhere near a university just ask them to let you leave your HD near their electromagnet for a few minutes. |
| Thu 03 Jun | JWA | Thanks for the tips everybody. It was DBAN that I had used before. I have it running right now. Thanks again, --Josh |
| Thu 03 Jun | flamebait sr. | The problem is that if you want to be *really* *really* *really* sure that nobody can use your data later on, you really should destroy it. Remember, your boogeyman of choice is going to spend a lot of time to recover relatively miniscule pieces of data, just in case they get a big payoff or two. The NSA kept records of Russian transmissions that they couldn't crack, just in case they come up with a way later. Stuff like that. Don't try degausing or otherwise exposing a drive to magnetic fields to destroy the information. You will also destroy the embedded servo information that will render the drive useless. My personal preference for these sort of things is to dissassemble the disk, give it a nice blast with a blowtorch (always a great start for destroying things) followed by carefully sanding every trace of magnetic media off of the platters. But, really, you just need to be on the happy side of the benefit of recovery vs. cost of recovery scale. The afforementioned wiping utilities will make sure to actually wipe the drive and leave very little chance to recover data later on. Formatting may not wipe everything off of the drive, because at various points, unformat information has been included and/or the format just wipes out the FAT tables. |
| Thu 03 Jun | They'd Have To Shoot Me | 'And if you do have such secrets to protect, you should be physically destroying and burning your used media' I once contracted with a government body that wouldn't allow *anything* out of the building intact. They even made use destroy the printers. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | Comparison of different hard disk wipers. http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/true/882/Comparison_Shredders.htm |
| Thu 03 Jun | Guy LeDouche | These 'wipe' utility vendors propagate a false myth about DoD specs. Top Secret data need to be physically destroyed (Degausser or smash it to tiny bits); a software wipe/overwrite no matter how many passes are not sufficient. The current U.S. DoD specs are at http://www.dss.mil/isec/chapter8.htm -- scroll down to 'sanitation matrix.' |
| Fri 04 Jun | Alex | 'Disintegrate, incinerate, pulverize, shred, or melt.' Shudder. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Matthew Lock | Here are some of my favourite ways to render hard drives unreadable: - put them in the oven/bonfire until they explode - flatten them in an industrial press - melt them down in a vat |
| Fri 04 Jun | anon | A steel mill I know of throws tapes into the molten steel when it's time to dispose of them. I'd like to see someone recover *that* data. |
| Fri 04 Jun | Rob | 'Disintegrate, incinerate, pulverize, shred, or melt.' You just know there are GS-12 Government Destruction Technicians out there whose job is just to smash things with $1,800 Pentagon hammers, then they take 20-minute smoke breaks every 30 minutes where they probably bitch to each other about their 30 days vacation and 30 days sick leave and 25 year full retirement pensions. |
| Long-term prospects of Win32 development | Thu 03 Jun | Herbert Sitz |
| Just read this InfoWorld preview of VS.NET 2005. I found it very interesting that MS seems to want to re-enhance the place of Visual C++ within its stable of compilers. Perhaps .NET wont bring an end to Win32 development. (Of course Win32 development will end sometime, Im just suggesting that .NET is not going to be what brings it about.) http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/05/28/22FEvs2005_1.html?s=feature A quote: Microsoft is putting Visual C++ 2005 back at the top of the food chain. When Microsoft released VS .Net, it assumed that C++ developers would jump to C# en masse. Unmanaged — compiled to machine instructions — code was deemed primitive, dangerous, and exploitable. VS .Net derailed Visual C++ to encourage C++ developers to evolve into more civilized and enlightened C# beings. New efforts on behalf of Visual C++ 2005 suggest that Microsoft has backed off the C# hard-sell. C++ libraries have been cleaned up, with potential security holes plugged and new features added. Optional language extensions, which Microsoft has submitted for standards consideration, wire .Net-essential capabilities such as garbage collection (automatic deallocation of memory) into Visual C++ 2005. An implementation of the C++ Standard Template Library will provide a portable and transparent wrapper layer around .Net. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Herbert Sitz | Maybe even more interesting is that it appears that the name of the product will not be Visual Studio .NET Version 2005, but rather just Visual Studio 2005. And that (non .NET) Visual Basic 2005 and Visual Interdev 2005 will reappear as supported langauges along with VC++, VB.NET, and C#. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander | Great! If I sit on my ass and do nothing long enough, everything that I know will become valuable again. Just like fat and skinny ties. :-) PS: I'm not being sarcastic. I'm serious. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Paulo Caetano | Another example of their new extended-support policy? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Herbert Sitz | Whoops, before some corrects me I should say it's not clear from the article that VB 2005 will be non-.NET. On rereading it looks like maybe it's just going to be a stripped down VB.NET with a few other differences. (And, of course, I shouldn't have said that Visual Interdev was "a language.") |
| Thu 03 Jun | yet another anon | I think there's an inverse relationship between the developer skill level for a language and the amount of effort that Microsoft puts toward marketing the tools for it. The strange thing is that MS has put forth a great effort to raise the bar for VC++. They've hired a some heavyweights (e.g., Stanley Lippman, Herb Sutter) and have made great improvements to the compiler (ISO and STL compliance), yet they've really failed to market it much. Makes no sense. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Hank | This should surprise no one. There is a real need for unmanged code in the Windows world. Yes a lot of people can get by with managed code. BUT the managed code needs to ride on top of something. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Kyralessa | 'Not surprisingly, Visual C# and Visual J# pick up new features.' Someone actually programs in J#? Who is he? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dennis Forbes | http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnreal/html/realworld06012004.asp |
| Thu 03 Jun | Mike | And yet the unix community forges ahead with tools that Microsoft would call archaic, while continuing to produce more secure stable code. What up? |
| Thu 03 Jun | Joe | I used VJ# once...I pried a function out of an applet that happened to do some insurance calculations that I needed, and shoved it into a VJ# dll. About two weeks later, I got irritated by having that extra dll just for one function, and thought it was silly that my users should have to install the VJ# runtime in addition to the .NET Framework, so I finally converted it to C#. I'd have to agree that it's more of a MS marketing strategy to pull in Java developers than a first-class development tool. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | Win32 is the rock that .NET is built on. It will never go away. It may come in different incarnations, it may be exposed through different abstractions, but it will never ever go away. What is all of this hoopla about the demise of the Win32 API? Nothing more than talk. Until full functionality of the Win32 API is exposed in some form or another it will not go away. Please tell me how you create a DBMS using C# or VB .NET? Please tell me how you create contect creation systems like Adobe Photoshop, Indesign, Illustator, QuarkXPress and a million others without full access to the Win32 API? How do you build these on .NET? Please tell me how you do anything significant in .NET? The answer is that you don't. I read somewhere that the PrintShop team is doing a bunch of stuff to convert parts of the PrintShop to .NET. They have to go through layer after layer of abstraction and create 'junky' hacks just to use the damn thing? Why? Just so they can claim to have used the .NET? You know how much their customers care about this? They don't. It just ads bulk. If they were smart they would refactor the C++ and call it good. I was helping a friend of mine learn PrintShop. I commmented that I was surprised it used .NET. She didn't know what .NET was and didn't really care. Did it make PrintShop easy to use or install? No. It just bloated the damn thing. .NET is for corporate programmers doing database apps and web sites/services. Other than that it is just a bunch of fluff. It's a puff ball waiting to go poof. It is not a rock. It is built on a rock, but there is a difference. You can't remove the rock and still have a solid platform. If MS were to take C++ away and not leave us with anything that exposed the full Win32 API (not a hack to declare API calls in managed code) there would be lawsuits gallore from companies that make the 'real software.' Dear Microsoft: Please place a small API declarations app in the next version of VS so that we can actually put API calls in managed code without a lot of hassle. Thank you and have a nice day. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander | Anon's post begs the question: Isn't Win32 'supposed' to go away at some point and be replaced by a compatibility layer? My understanding was that .Net or CLR is supposed to replace Win32 as the system API at some future time. I thought that was part of the intent of Longhorn. I suppose Win32 could be 'degraded' in status by making system permission to run native Win32 applications an option controlled by an administrator or by someone anointed with that 'right.' |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | >> 'Isn't Win32 'supposed' to go away at some point and be replaced by a compatibility layer?' >> Here's the problem. You can't have a 'compatibility layer' or an 'abstraction layer' or whatever you want to call it, if it limits functionality. Expose all functionality and you will be ok, but don't abstract away functionality. Microsoft cannot and will not meet everyones need by abstracting away functionality and replacing it with what they deem as 'necessary.' Take GDI+ for example. It's a piece of junk IMO. It doesn't expose the levels of functionality that TextOut, DrawText, ExtTextOut, GetGlyphOutline etc etc... Sure its great if you just want to DrawText here or there but if you want fine control of how the text is rendered and drawn then you need the functionality of the underlying API. It's that simple. Functionality. That's the keyword. When Microsoft abstracts something they abstract away functionality. The key is to abstract it, making it easier to use, while providing the same functionality. Obviously this is not possible as proved by .NET. Having complained enough, I will say that, yes, a 'compatiblity layer' as you put it can and should take the place of the Win32 API as long it exposes complete functionality. That's the catch, however. How many abstractions of a lower level API have you written that expose all of the functionality contained there-in. Probably not many. Why? Because it's difficult if not impossible. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | Another example of abstracting away functionality is DirectX. I don't know how many people on this board are familiar with DirectX, but MS decided to take away direct access to video memory after v7. Fine. They want us to go through their API calls so as to better utilize hardware. Good idea. Except they forgot something? What about my custom routine that 'drains' the screen? What about my screen blurring routine? Hey I need direct access to video memory for these. I'm sure there's a million more. Save the memory manager for corporate users who write db apps and let the guys who have to/want to/know what they're doing take on the responsibility of managing their own resources like it's always been. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dennis Forbes | 'Isn't Win32 'supposed' to go away at some point and be replaced by a compatibility layer? ' Ultimately .NET is built atop a binary infrastructure, and for that infrastructure to deny any accessibility to enforce a marketing decision would be questionable. .NET has to interact with the system somehow, so it seems logical that a lower binary layer will remain. (Furthermore this isn't a security issue - we've had process isolation since the mid-80s). As far as 'Microsoft' foretelling doom, I think it needs to be considered that Microsoft is a very large company with a very disparate set of views (there are groups in MS that use exclusively C and make, for instance. Apparently they haven't heard that the 'Whole company is behind .NET'), but every now and then the marketing engine lets a couple of blowhards have a very loud voice. As an example, I was watching a .NET Show talking about XAML, and they were sincerely claiming that XAML would supplant HTML in the near future. While the Microdroids surely eat this up and start ordering thier XAML For Dummies books, this betrays such an enormous ignorance of recent history that it boggles the mind. That someone could say this with a straight face amazes me. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Bored Bystander | Anon and Dennis, everything you say makes sense. .Net as the system API makes about as much sense as using a VB runtime DLL or the UCSD P-Code interpreter for the core operating system. But I heard the marketing BS and I was confooosed... However, the job and contract markets are reacting as though .Net is the core of everything. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Alyosha` | Alyosha`s conjecture: the prejudice against managed code will never be overcome. I predict in the 25th century, we will have everything we see in Star Trek -- space vessels, phaser beams, transporters, replicators -- the only difference is that we will still be finding memory leaks and buffer overruns with hex debuggers. Serious. The prejudice is due to three reasons: first, we're acclimatized to the headaches of programming 'to the metal'. Second, the binary API, which has been dogfooded for decades, will always appear superior and more complete than the emerging managed code API. Hence grumbles about 'leaky abstractions'. Lastly, since managed code is admittedly slower than compiled code, people will assume that it's too slow for their purposes (which is rarely true). It's almost as ludicrous as someone rejecting C in the modern day because they can't hope to achieve the performance and tightness of assembly language. *cough* *cough* * http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm * *cough* |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | >> 'The prejudice is due to three reasons: first, we're acclimatized to the headaches of programming 'to the metal'. Second, the binary API, which has been dogfooded for decades, will always appear superior and more complete than the emerging managed code API. Hence grumbles about 'leaky abstractions'. Lastly, since managed code is admittedly slower than compiled code, people will assume that it's too slow for their purposes (which is rarely true).' << This is simply not true. I love managed code and if I could get all of the functionality I needed from managed code I would use it. Moore's law takes care of the 'slower than compiled code' part. Really I think .NET is fast enough. I am not used to the headaches of 'programming to the metal'. But I am used to having the functionality I need. It is very simple and not as complex as you make it out to be. Second I would like to comment on Boreds comment. .NET is the ultimate marketing scheme by Microsoft. It answers the ever present question of 'What's new and what's next?' It's easy in this industry to buy into these new things especially with promises of productivity gains. What can I say .NET does make me more productive for certain things. When .NET makes me more productive for all Windows applications then give me a call (555) 555-1212. Where are the new jobs coming from? Where would the new jobs come from if it were not for 'new' technology like .NET. This stuff is inevitable and profitable, but as with anything it takes time to 'make it right.' And making it certainly does not mean abstracting away functionality. |
| Thu 03 Jun | anon | err... last sentence should read "making it right" |
| Thu 03 Jun | Somorone | I think as most win16 appz works on windows 2000. Win32 appz will work on longhorn and any other future OS. |
| Thu 03 Jun | Dennis Forbes | 'the only difference is that we will still be finding memory leaks and buffer overruns with hex debuggers' Managed code doesn't cure bugs. More than once I've seen on here something akin to 'I don't need to worry about going out of array bounds anymore!'...uh, okay. If your program crashed because you can't handle array sizes then that's the _least_ of your worries - 'I might be putting the incorrectly calculated deposit in the wrong account, I have the wrong |