JOS Statistics - Recent Comments

last updated:04 Sep 2004 18:17 UK time

JOS Statistics - Recent Comments
(Comments added for week ending Sun 05 Sep 2004) | View Other Weeks

New Forum Request | Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis

Joel, Is it possible to arrange that there are links from the new forums to each other, so we dont have to do too much navigation between them ? Obviously, the answer is yes, it is possible, but I dont mean it quite that literally. Rather, it is a request that I hope you will take onboard and implement. Thanks.

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | Thanks Joel, you seem to be very responsive today.

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | I think Joel has always been reasonable. Only some guys here forget that we are only guests and it is actually HIS thing, and so we can only ask. So when he doesn't respond, they crib.

Fri 03 Sep | Freddie boy | just checking :-)

Joel on Software graveyard | Fri 03 Sep | phil jones

Joels says theres be new discussion fora, but fora which arent used much will end in the graveyard. Any reason why groups should get cut? Is it the disk-space? The screen real-estate? The cognitive confusion?

Fri 03 Sep | Ogami Itto | The time it takes to police groups that aren't being used?

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | In a year's time, will we remember this as the beginning of the end for JoS ? Sadly, I think we will.

Fri 03 Sep | no name | I think the end started the first time this forum got slashdotted.

Fri 03 Sep | Ogami Itto | When was that?

Fri 03 Sep | Dennis Forbes | Change is, in general, difficult to accept, however the success of this forum over the past while has been a huge surprise to me given the dearth of features. Ultimately I think this forum survived more in spite of itself rather than because of some tremendous insight into online communities - Joel's essays attracted some wise people, and it's those people who intrigued me by this board (which makes it especially strange that Joel has shown a contempt for 'regulars' in his observation of community - there is nothing special about this forum, quite contrary in fact, beyond the fact that there are some quality people who have hung out here).

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | A wise man once said, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Nobody comes here because of the amazing features, or lack thereof, it is to see what the regulars have to say. Quite a few of the old regulars seem to have abandoned ship lately, including Joel himself.

joel's articles | Fri 03 Sep | Cat

where are the articles by joel? I can only locate APIWar from an external link.

Fri 03 Sep | John Topley (www.johntopley.com) | They're where they've always been: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/navLinks/fog0000000247.html

Fri 03 Sep | Cat | Thanks.

Where's Philo? | Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy

Wheres Philo. Havent seen him since a long time. Im sure he is still posting. I guess hes taken a new avatar on the forum. Any guesses who Philo might be amoungst the new crowd? Or may be hes not posting anymore. May be hes just reading it. Or may just be that hes plain busy and not even reading it. But I find it hard to believe. Philo cant go away from JoS.

Fri 03 Sep | Regular Poster | Who gives a damn? I could never see what the big deal with Philo was anyway.

Fri 03 Sep | no name | Maybe he fell down the cracks between the new forums. Or maybe he just went on his holidays; people are allowed to do that you know.

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Nothing special about Philo. Just that he was a regular and I haven't seem him lately for long enough. I even wrote to him some time back in July and he hasn't replied yet. He always used to reply earlier. I just hope everything's fine with him.

Fri 03 Sep | Ogami Itto | He's working for apple, supporting a newsgroup that talks about Cocoa development, and how apple won the API war by going unix.

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | Sathyaish, as you claim that Philo is your uncle, surely you should be in a position to locate him ? ;-) Don't worry though, I'm sure he'll be back (Arnie-style) in due course.

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Philo isn't my real uncle. We endeared him by addressing him as Uncle Philo. That's all.

Fri 03 Sep | no name | He didn't post into his blog quite a time: http://blogs.msdn.com/philoj/

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Yeah, that as well.

Fri 03 Sep | a cynic writes... | Last seen two weeks ago with the 'ump, here: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=177598&ixReplies=23 Whether he did 'go back to Usenet', is on holiday or just changed his nickname I'm afraid I don't know.

My 2 cents on the new forums | Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy

When things change, it is bad. My first impression of the new forum was that I didnt like it very much. It doesnt look as good, although its the same to use. But experience has shown me that when forums change, they either die or people get used to them after some time and they dont die. So, I guess Ill get used to it. But I hate to think of the crowd being broken down. Lets all sign a pact, where will most of us go? I also have a question. How would you classify a post like My boss sucks. Would that be the human side of software? I still observe a lot of crowd on the new JoS, the first of the four new forums. And theyre not posting much about the topics discussed on the main site, except that today they are because Joel posted about the new forums on his main page. Lets see if theyre going to stick to relevant discussions after today. I am sure well see some salad-cream threads on the new JoS forum as well. And Im still going to check the old forum so I dont miss anything. Feels horrible. But I guess well all get used to it.

Fri 03 Sep | Bob's your uncle | What new forums??

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Actually, Philo's my uncle. ;-)

Which forum would Chris track now? | Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy

Which forum would Chris (usabilitymustdie) track now? The old one or the new one? If it is the new one, would that mean that there would be no archive for the old posts?

Fri 03 Sep | Bob's your uncle | what new forums??

Fri 03 Sep | a cynic writes... | http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?pg=pgDiscussGroups Those new forums (under test as we speak). They're sort of mentioned on joelonsoftware.com a blog that's stunningly popular on the local manor.

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | I hope that he (or someone) will take the initiative and aggregate the separate forums back into a single one again.

New Forum Critic | Fri 03 Sep | RM

Two Thumbs Down. It is NOT going to be as popular as the classic one. In fact, I predict the readership will significantly go down, worse yet, it will mark the beginning of the death of Joel on Software. Why? First of all, IMO, the popularity of JOS is based on its uniqueness; see Joel’s essay on its design and goal. With new bells and whistlers, Joel seems to have abandoned his original intentions. Also, with spawning of several JOS variants, I say, they are all going to die just like the New Yorker group because the visitors don’t come here for the Joel’s user net groups; they come here for one and only one reason that is JOS. On the usability note, I don’t know about most people, but I can’t stand the tiny images. Why can’t I simply click the author name to send him an email just like in the classic JOS? When I first heard of the ability to add link, I had something like this in mind, RM <---E-Mail www.CNN.com <----- Link Not with the tiny images. The new one seems a lot more like the missing link in the evolution of classic JOS to millions of other PHP forums. Anyway, it is still in beta stage and I hope, he will reconsider.

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | I agree with you: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=182807&ixReplies=0

Fri 03 Sep | i like i | yeap, no web address icons (maybe the url beneath the name?), email by clicking on the name, and we want an *irrelevant* thumbnail in the top-left of each thread (rather than the 'hall'). The salting usernames seems like a good idea too. Low cost, saves all the not funny trolling etc.

Yuk!!! | Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis

Sorry guys, but the new forums both suck and blow at the same time, as Bart would say. Part of the attraction of this forum is the fact that you get lots of topics together. Splitting them out into several seems to be a pain, meaning lots of to-ing and fro-ing between them. Anyone care to create an aggregator ? It will be interesting to see if this experiment is successful, as I suspect that the fragmentation will be a bad thing overall. It isnt the case (as Joel suggests) that there is too much traffic here, imho. Also, I would assume that most of the JoS readers know how to scroll. I am interested to see that the new forums appear to be just FogBUGZ databases in a (very) thin disguise. I wonder if this is a new direction for the product?

Fri 03 Sep | Aussie Chick | I thought the new forum lost the 'simplistic' appeal that this one has.

Fri 03 Sep | Christopher Wells | Did it lose the 'simplistic' appeal, only because the new uses an icon to show whether an email address is available? Because apart from that, and the change in font, and there now being several forums instead of one, and the promise of a 'Search' function that actually searches, I don't notice any other change in appearance/functionality.

Fri 03 Sep | . | Give us the old forums back. :)

Fri 03 Sep | Nemesis | I wasn't talking about the look and feel (let's face it, it looks like crap, but it is a beta, so you might expect that). No, my main objection is that there are now several forums instead of just this one. I hope Joel changes his mind on this one and this is just a flag-waving exercise to see if he gets shot down.

Fri 03 Sep | a cynic writes... | I don't think the 'themed' forums will work - if only because I've never seen a thread stay completely on topic. As for the rest - I'm not keen on the new font but otherwise I'm Ok with it - *but* I would like the logon feature that's intended for FogCreek staff to be enabled for the rest of us. One thing I've never seen tried is to split a forum into several with completely arbitary names (circle, triangle and square say) and let people sort out their own themeing. It would still get things down to a manageable size without any particular sub-forum being ignored completely. Most people would stick to their own favourite 'shape' with a few who browsed them all letting us have a small world network.

Fri 03 Sep | devinmoore.com | once the URL's are switched over, i won't complain. As it is, when I click the button, I go to this one, so I use this one.

This forum is obsolete. link to the new forum | Fri 03 Sep | Michael Moser

Just noticed that this forum is obsolete. Here is the new forum http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel And three others, as well. http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?pg=pgDiscussGroups i guess they could have placed a link to the new forum. i am a bit slow to react, especially if there is no direction. This post is for the benefit of people like me; ,

Fri 03 Sep | Michael Moser | ... maybe, now there is no moderation for this forum, now that it is obsolete?

Fri 03 Sep | www.marktaw.com | Those forums are still in beta, notice the "bugs" link on the side of the page.

Fri 03 Sep | kc | So should everyone switch to the new place now?

Fri 03 Sep | Peter Monsson | Nope. They're still in beta.

Interesting hiring posts | Thu 02 Sep | Dennis Forbes

Just noticed this on the catch-all blogs.msdn.com and thought it was pertinent to some of the discussions weve had in the past on here. http://blogs.msdn.com/HeatherLeigh/archive/2004/09/02/224972.aspx

Fri 03 Sep | lrig | Hiring managers hire 'mini-me's' because the highest compliment you give yourself is self-affirmation. 'I am great, therefore people who have the same background as me must be great, too.' Of course, this contributes to homogeneous work environments.

difference between java standard and enterprise | Thu 02 Sep | Savage

The last time I seriously used Java was back in 2001. Please can somebody tell me the difference between the Java Standard Edition and the Java Enterprise Edition downloads available from www.java.com. The Java Standard Edition has the compiler, virtual machine and core libraries. Is the Enterprise edition a superset of the standard edition _or_ does it just contain extra libraries for things like XML, servlets, JSP etc ? Does the enterprise edition contain the compiler and virtual machine? Do you have to download the standard edition to get the enterprise edition to work?

Thu 02 Sep | Vince | Yes. Err, J2EE is just additional libraries (and they may package Sun's app server with it too), for J2EE development. This means servlets, JSPs, EJBs etc. You need J2SE also if you want to do J2EE development.

Thu 02 Sep | Confused | I'm also confused as well - here's what I have: J2SE 1.4.2 Tomcat JSTL Then J2EE is just additional class libraries?

Thu 02 Sep | Dewd | J2EE popularly is the worthy Java. It generally means server Java. JSP, Servlets, etc, are included, of course. But it also means the standardized APIs for server Java, for which there may be different implementations. Generally, someone who does Java, does J2EE. Then there is J2SE, which is generally just a means to an end. It includes de core Java and the core Java tools, like the compiler. It's so basic that it generally isn't worthy. It includes the Java GUI, for example. :-) Tomcat is simply one of the many different J2EE server implementations. It's freely available and is one of the prime implementations. Well, that's one way of saying it. :-)

Thu 02 Sep | Andrew Cherry | To clarify, Tomcat is not a J2EE server. It's basically only a Servlet container. A J2EE server is comprised of various sets of functionality, of which Tomcat can provide a part. As an example, later versions of JBoss use Tomcat as the Servlet container.

Thu 02 Sep | Jeremy | For yet another clarification, J2EE is the standardization of Java _interfaces_, not an implementation. Sun recently made their J2EE app server either cheap or free but every vendor's implementation is a little different in some respects since some of the specifications have quite a bit of grey.

Thu 02 Sep | the artist formerly known as prince | JSP's/servlets are part of j2ee. tomcat is the server that runs jsps/servlets jsps/servlets are a good part of j2ee to start on, and possibly the only one you will ever need

Fri 03 Sep | Koz | J2ee is j2se + a whole bunch of APIs. JMS JTA Servlet EJB JNDI JavaMail etc. etc. etc. The langauge is exactly the same, there's just a whole bunch of libraries to learn.

Re-using desgin/code | Thu 02 Sep | Afraid to tell my name

The question can be interpreted as follows in one line: Will we succeed in re-using a code base and design which has not been designed/developed for re-usable purpose? I am talking about relatively big/complex source code base. The elaborate question is as follows: What kind of code can be re-used? Here is the situation: Product A is big, complex and has lots of product specific code. Product B is new, which is similar to product A. We don’t have software spec for product B. We don’t really know right now what components that we need in product B. Management decided that we have to re-use Product A code. We studied Product A source code and found that it is well designed, has some reusable code but too much product specific code. The developers who are going to work in Product B have no idea about Product A source code and design. Product A source have some software design documents but specific to Product A. How to go about this situation? One proposal is to start removing product specific code from product A and make it some common code base. This is assuming that we know what we wanted in a common source base. Another proposal is to study the Product A source code line by line, and see if we can re-use it or not. Remember we don’t have Product B spec yet. Any thoughts?

Thu 02 Sep | aftraid to respond | > has some reusable code but too much product specific code. Doesn't that seem like the answer there? Abstract out the code so it handles both cases. Don't try to handle every case. Just the cases you know about.

Thu 02 Sep | J. Random Hacker | Basically all reusable code starts out this way--as not-quite-reusable chunks of a real application. If I had permission to modify project A, I'd start out by refactoring useful classes into standalone modules, retesting A at each step. I'd write unit tests for the new standalone modules *and for the parts of A which interface with those modules*. At the same time, I'd start by developing a primitive version of B which called the new standalone modules (and unit tests for B, of course). In general, if I need to modify an existing codebase heavily, I write lots of unit tests *before* making changes. This allows me to make wrenching changes without (much) fear of breaking stuff.

Thu 02 Sep | Christopher Wells | Afraid didn't say whether he wants to maintain Project A: whether he wants to end up with A and B (implying that A is refactored), or whether he wants to end up with only B (implying that A may be cannibalized).

Thu 02 Sep | Noname | Was the code for product A built with reuse in mind? If not, forget about it. Reuse almost never happens by accident or as an afterthought. Write the code for product B from scratch, and deliberately design it make it reusable so product C can benefit.

Thu 02 Sep | Should be working | Been there done that. The code for Product A was well enough engineered that I could rip out huge chunks of it (the stuff not needed for Product B) and still have it mostly compile. What is hampering us most is that the overall architecture for Product A doesn't quite translate to the new product. So we have a few odd pieces of functionality grafted onto or embedded within the code. In the short term, I think we've saved some time. In the longer term, I suspect we will wind up refactoring and recoding to support new features and it'll play out to be roughly equivalent to starting from scratch.

Thu 02 Sep | Jeff Kotula | It sounds to me like the management refered to by the OP has decided that they want some sort of Product B, similar to A. Ergo, we must reuse product A or B will be *too expensive*. This is classic poor judgement on the part of management. There is no way to predict ahead of time whether refactoring a massive existing architecture will be cheaper than starting over, perhaps with newer, better tools or dev environments. This is especially true if you have no specs for product B. I've seen this type of reasoning before from those who think they understand software development, but really have only a limited experience with it. Let me guess: is the management's experience primarily with product A? Another factor to consider is how much destabilization you are willing to accept in the course of heavy refactoring of A. The type of changes you allude to rarely occur without introducing bugs. It helps if you have good unit tests though. My advice is this: don't get into the evolution vs. revolution argument, especially if the management have emotional attachment to product A and some delusions that they understand software. You won't win. Instead, treat the project as an exercise in learning how to safely restructure large existing codebases. But don't be surprised if you aren't given time to do it correctly -- if time weren't an issue they wouldn't have already decided they had to reuse A.

Thu 02 Sep | Andrew Cherry | 'We don’t really know right now what components that we need in product B.' Until you do, forget the question of code re-use. If you start trying to refactor now, all you're going to be doing is burning £5 notes (replace currency as applicable). Unless there's at least one person who has the time to both understand the product requirements for Product B, and understand (at least approximately) the code base of Product A, you might as well start drafting the appendix to Death March now.

Thu 02 Sep | Afraid to tell my name | Product A is active and going to be alive for a long time. I am afraid that instead of developing ‘Product B’ specific functionalities, we will be spending most of the 'Product B' development time on correcting Product A code base to create a platform on which again the Product B code have to be written.

Thu 02 Sep | Afraid to tell my name | Substitute 'correcting' with 'Refactoring' :)

Thu 02 Sep | no name | Sounds like a crock of shit. What do you want us to do?

Thu 02 Sep | redguardtoo | 'Product A is active and going to be alive for a long time. ' maybe you can forget Product A and rebuild (not refactory) product B (of course, you can copy some codes from product A) There is possible risk in development process of product B. When you 'correcting Product A code base to create a platform', maybe you make product B *dependent* on product A in the early phase of development process? Only you know the details. redguardtoo http://www.d2ksoft.com

Thu 02 Sep | Joe | I second Andrew. You *need* the spec for Product B before you can make any decisions. That includes the premature decision that your pointy haired bosses have already made to reuse Product A code, although it doesn't sound like you have any say in getting them to consider that more carefully. But you should insist on knowing more about B before you start trying to figure out what chunks to rip out of A, or whether you want to create a common code base.

Fri 03 Sep | trollop | Third that. Are the following suppositions correct? 1) Product A is up and running with maintainance staff of 2. 2) Product A users like it as it is - working. 3) Product A development team is dispersed / out the door. If so, no one sane would touch Product A, it would be like fitting a new motor to a jetplane in midair. The task is way beyond the maintenance guys (been there, done that) and is a threat to the product. Let it go. Copy A's codebase to B and start afresh. Use relevant chunks from A, but do not retrofit to A. Rehire any good guys from A's development and tell them it's their last chance to get it right. And sack your managers - they're nitwits. Quote from this thread if it helps.

Smokin' theme for Ffox/T-bird | Thu 02 Sep | Ogami Itto

Yesterday I stumbled quite by acident on the Smoke theme by Aaron Spuler http://www.mozthemes.tk/ for Firefox and Thunderbird. Aaron seems to have some of the best looking themes on his website, go take a look. And by the way, whats your favorite Theme for Thunderbird/Firefox?

Thu 02 Sep | josheli | Someone once told Darrell Royal he was crazy for looking both ways when he crossed a one-way street. Coach Royal responded, 'What's so crazy about that?'

Thu 02 Sep | OffMyMeds | hmm... I like everything on my computer to look the same as everything else, so I gotta vote for the current incarnation of Qute, as it blends the best with Windows XP.

Thu 02 Sep | muppet | +++hmm... I like everything on my computer to look the same as everything else, so I gotta vote for the current incarnation of Qute, as it blends the best with Windows XP.+++ yep, you need to get back on your meds.

Thu 02 Sep | JWA | I use a great Office 2003 inspired theme for both FireFox and Tunderbird and I like it alot. I also use the extension that puts the entire menu structure under one Menu entry in the toolbar, so that I can get all of the controls down to one toolbar height, plus the links bar. I like this layout a lot both functionally and visually. --Josh

Fri 03 Sep | Ogami Itto | Got an url for that theme JWA?

Fri 03 Sep | a cynic writes... | Noia 2.0

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time | Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy

I finished reading The Curious Incident of the Dog In the Night-Time a couple of hours back. I wanted to let others who have not read the book yet know a few of my thoughts: (1) The book is about a mentally challenged boy. It is nurrated by the boy himself in first person, so it does not mention explicitly that the boy has special needs, but you are given to pick that up as you read. (2) The chapters of the book are numbered in prime numbers. Unlike all books, where chapters are numbered serially like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...and so on, this book has prime numbers for the chapters, like 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 ...and so on, which is kind of interesting. (3) If you are a programmer, there is a lot in common that you will find between the boy Christopher and yourself. (4) All the time I was reading the book, I felt compassionate towards the boy. If you are too sensitive, please do not read this book. Your heart will bleed tearfully. (5) If you have had a childhood drama/trauma, or have lived away from your parents, or have lost your parents early in life, or your parents have seperated, or there is any kind of a childhood pattern that comes to you now, long after the cause of the pattern occuring in your childhood, please do not touch this book. It will tear you down. You wont read it in one year, let alone one night. (6) At some places, the book reads like Joels writing, when he condescends down to layman alley to crystalize things. It felt nice. I thought a lot about this forum while reading the book, I dont know why. May be because of the simple prose the author has used. It read more like this guys post on this thread. (7) The book carries an implicit reminder that simplicity is the best. (8) I related to a lot of traits this child has. I liked many of the parts in the book those are brought up. For example, he says he doesnt like to talk to strangers. And I dont like to do that too. I mean I dont like to talk to people I already do not know. Not like I dont like to, but I felt sort of run out of memory if I just bumped into a complete stranger and a conversation started. I never could bring out the reason into words as to why it was this way. He does it in this book. He says we dont like to talk to strangers, not because of anything else but because they are new into your life and to record information about anything new in your brain disrupts the flow of the information that is already running through your brain. I just relate to that very well. I am sure many programmers do and that quite explains why people say programmers lack social skills. Its because what we deal with everyday is far too complicated and we have the responsibility of leading a mundane life along with crunching all those logic circuits in our brains. Some descriptions I liked very much because I can relate to them are here: From Chapter 37 (which is chapter 13 actually, because the chapters are prime-numbered) ============= I do not tell lies. Mother used to say that this was because I was a good person. But it is not because I am a good person. It is because I cant tell lies. Mother was a small person who smelt nice. A lie is when you say something happened which didnt happen. But there is only ever one thing which happened at a particular time and a particular place. And there are an inifinite number of things that did not happen at that time and that place. And if I start thinking about somethig which didnt happen, I start thinking about all the other things that didnt happen. For example, this morning for breakfast, I had Ready Brek and some hot raspberry milkshake. But if I say that I actually had Shreddies and a mug of tea, I start thinking about Coco-pops and lemonade and porridge and Dr.Pepper and how I wasnt eating my breakfast in Egypt and there wasnt a rhinoceros in the room and Father wasnt wearing a driving suit and so on and even writing this makes me feel very shaky and scared, like I do when I am standing on the top of a very tall building and there are thousands of houses and cars and people below me and my head is so full of all these things that I am afraid I am going to forget to stand up straight and hang onto the rail and I am going to fall over and be killed.

Thu 02 Sep | Pakter | Still scary, Sathyaish ! ;-)

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Who/what is scary? I do not understand.

Thu 02 Sep | no name | This post is about a mentally challenged boy

Thu 02 Sep | A.M. | ... And movie rights have already been purchased by Brad Pitt, so if you don't want to read it, wait for the film! (seriously)

Thu 02 Sep | Confused | Sigh. I am so tired of the endless categorization of programmers as some kind of mentally aberrant group. Look, I and none of the people in my team play D & D, we can all, well except for one, can carry on a normal conversation, 4 out of 6 are married, etc etc. We just have a special talent.

Thu 02 Sep | Aaron F Stanton | I'm a programmer. Most people aren't. I'm left handed. Most people aren't. I've lived my entire life as a person outside the "norm" of society. Heck, I even play D&D. But you know what? I honestly don't care how or even if people classify me.

Thu 02 Sep | Alex | Bah, there are two kinds of people, those who categorize and those who don't.

Thu 02 Sep | Pakter | Your last long sentence was scary.

Thu 02 Sep | Xela | Nyet, there are two kinds of people, those who eat lemons, and those who copulate with walruses.

Thu 02 Sep | . | >copulate with walruses. Uh, I ate a lemon once. :-)

Fri 03 Sep | Simon Lucy | The last paragraph was a quote from the book, so who was being scary?

Fri 03 Sep | a2800276 | >Look, I and none of the people in my team play D & D, we can all, >well except for one, can carry on a normal conversation, 4 out of 6 >are married, etc etc. >We just have a special talent. I'm a very good driver.

Fri 03 Sep | Jimmy Jo-Jo | Xela, can't I do both?

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Now, I didn't mean that all programmers were imbecile OCDs dribbling saliva out of their mouths and making groaning sounds if they didn't like something. Otherwise, all the PDCs and TechEdge's would have wet seats. I just meant that at one level or another, you can relate to the boy's dilemma. I do. >his post is about a mentally challenged boy What would have been a better description? Or rather what is wrong with that description? Please! No, seriously. Tell me. >... And movie rights have already been purchased by Brad Pitt, so if you don't want to read it, wait for the film! (seriously) Cool! >Your last long sentence was scary. You mean point number 8? Yeah, I just wrote that text in a hurry when I was in the middle of writing point number 3 and then when I finished writing till point 7, I numbered that para 8. And I've farted all over the place I can smell. But then, it's just a post. However, if you're talking about the very last sentence in the post, it was an excerpt from the book, as Simon Lucy pointed out. In any case, you'd be helping me if you told me what was scary about the writing, so I could think the next time before writing. One question: How does Joel get to know about all the nice books before everyone else?

Fri 03 Sep | no name | > movie rights have already been purchased by Brad Pitt He won't even have to act.

Windows File Manager thingy | Thu 02 Sep | hoser

OK, I know this has been discussed before, but what is your favorite file manager type thingy? Id like the dual pane (or more?) type FM. Also, how do you guys manage to search the JoS thread archives so effectively?

Thu 02 Sep | Ryan | Total Commander: http://www.ghisler.com/

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | Google

Thu 02 Sep | Just me (Sir to you) | http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adiscuss.fogcreek.com+search

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | MacOS

Thu 02 Sep | hoser | Thank you Sir. (may I have another?)

Thu 02 Sep | Rob Warner | I use WinNc.net http://www.winnc.net

Thu 02 Sep | Alex | We're using FAR at work, a Norton Commander knock-off. At first I thought it was dorky, but you can change the fonts and resolution and get a decent manager. There are plugins for color highlighting a lot of files in the editor (remember F4?) -- including CPP, HTML, XML etc. Plus there is Hiew, which complements it naturally. The screenshots don't do it justice, I wonder why they are showing it in such a dinky resolution. http://farmanager.com/screens.asp

Thu 02 Sep | Sid | I use Total Commander. Great product. Can't live without my dual panes.

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | farmanager reminds me of DosShell (or is that DosHell? ha ha) still, I do like text lists, because they're so fast. Either give me text lists, or super pretty icon stuff. I don't want in-between stuff that looks like relics from the museum of bad computer interfaces.

Thu 02 Sep | Wayne | I prefer the Windows Explorer (dual pane) style and I can't stand the MacOS File Manager.

Thu 02 Sep | insignificant | Dual pane, but the common dialog control in windows sucks when it comes to the details.

Thu 02 Sep | RedFox | 2xplorer^2

Fri 03 Sep | Mat Hall | I just wrote my own. Not yet production quality, but it suits me fine. I'm a big fan of MDI apps, so it lets you contain a bunch of Explorer-style windows in one container, has features like 'Copy to all windows', will emulate the Win3.x FileMan (which I happened to like, along with the 3.x common file dialogs), brings back the 'New folder' toolbar button, blah blah. Given that the directory view and shell folder view are just ActiveX controls, anyone with 10 minutes to spare can probably knock up their own personalised file manager, and give it the features they need...

Which data type would you prefer here? | Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy

PS: This time, the link provided is not an EXE or a ZIP file. It is another HTML page. I wanted to practice some Linked List stuff, so I set out to create a linked list. The plan was to create the following: (1) A linked list class in Visual Basic (2) A non-class based linked list using functions in C (3) A linked list class in C++ I started with Visual Basic and I wrote an IList interface that I wanted my list to implement. When I had started, somehow I thought this time, Id first use a collection as the ingredient, and so it would not really be a linked list. It would be an extended collection behaving like a (not linked, but just a) list, as in list of things. And my new agenda would then be, (1) A list (not a linked list) class in Visual Basic by extending the Collection object. (2) A linked list class in Visual Basic (3) A linked list in Visual Basic that is not class-based but has a struct (Type) and global functions in a standard module (.bas). (4) A non-class based linked list using functions in C (5) A linked list class in C++ I dont like to create lists if they have no meaning, so I thought it would be a good idea if the list was a list of something and not just ints. So, I made a list of my friends here; a list of JoS members. I called the list MyFriends. I have just finished implementing a list by extending the Visual Basics Collection object. My list has the following interface: [CODE] Public Function AddAtPos(ByRef Object As Object, _ ByVal Index As Long) As Boolean End Function Public Function PeekAtPos(ByVal Index As Long) As Object End Function Public Function RemoveAtPos(ByVal Index As Long) As Boolean End Function Public Property Get Count() As Long End Property Public Function Contains(Object As Object) As Boolean End Function Public Function IndexOf(Object As Object) As Long End Function Public Sub Serialize() End Sub Public Sub Deserialize() End Sub Public Sub Clear() End Sub Public Sub Sort(ByVal SortOrder As SortOrders) End Sub Public Sub Reverse() End Sub [/CODE] If youre interested, you can find the source code and the executable for my first experiment here. http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=303400 Now, I am set to implement item number (2) in my agenda - the linked list class in Visual Basic. Once again, the semantics remain the same. I intend to keep the list as a list of friends. So each node in the list is a friend. While designing the node class or the MyFriend class, I stumbled accross this problem. I am recording two pieces of information about each friend: (1) Name (2) Phone Number Both are of String type. The problem was not with these, but with the node pointer item. I have three data types in mind that I can use to point to the next node. I am confused as to which one would be a good choice, and I want your opinion on the same. Heres what I have thought the node/MyFriend class as: [B]MyFriend Class[/B] [CODE] Implements IList Private mName As String Private mPhoneNumber As String ===Which one do I choose?======= Private mNextFriend As MyFriend OR Private mNextFriend As Long OR Private mNextFriend() As Byte ================================== [/CODE] Let me argue each case, as I thought about them. Starting with the last, if I take the mNextFriend field as a Byte array, it would help me....do nothing, basically. So, ruled out. Next, if took the mNextFriend field as a Long, I think it would be the ideal thing to do, because VB6 Longs are indeed 32-bit values, and then I would use the mNextFriend Long field to point to a new instance of MyFriend type, using the ObjPtr function. I would dereference the mNextFriend Long type by using RtlMoveMemory. That sounds like a nice plan. However, the problem with this is that it does not strictly confirm to a Linked List set up, because of the generic nature of this Long pointer. This pointer could be used to point not only to MyFriend types but to anything. Since I am going to be the developer audience for this class, and hence this is only dogfood, it is no problem, but in general, I dont like it as a habit and I always want my code to represent what it ought to represent. So, this would be like compromising on a trivial issue. If I use mNextFriend as a MyFriend type, I solve the problem of the generic pointer by restricting it to the MyFriend type. So, its more disciplined this way, but now, the field is not really a pointer. It is an object. Of course, it is still a 32-bit reference to the actual object, but it is still not a real pointer. So, I am confused. If you were to be doing this, what option would you choose and why? To me, the Long seems like ok, although it is a little bit of a compromise on the type-checking.

Thu 02 Sep | Mr. O | Ask your Comp Sci 101 teacher.

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Mr.O. It's not like I am learning these things the first time. I was asking for opinion, trying to start a serious discussion. If you don't have anything to say, just move on.

Thu 02 Sep | Paulo Caetano | 'If I use mNextFriend as a MyFriend type, I solve the problem of the generic pointer by restricting it to the MyFriend type. So, it's more disciplined this way, but now, the field is not really a pointer. It is an object. Of course, it is still a 32-bit reference to the actual object, but it is still not a real pointer.' AFAIK, that's one of the points of working in VB - to avoid dealing with some of the stuff you have to deal with in other languages/tools. If you want to deal explicitly with pointers, move on to your next steps - C/C++. Anyway, answering your question, this is the option that makes more sense to me. The 'Long' option smells too much of a hack, IMHO.

Thu 02 Sep | Kenny | me vote myFriend type

Thu 02 Sep | AllanL5 | The part that uses 'ObjPtr' is fraught with peril. You would be using a function whose only use should be to get around problems you can't solve any other way. It should be the first solution -- of type MyFriend. By the way, I usually use 'My' as a prefix for local data items. I would NEVER use it as a prefix for a class name. I want my class names to be more generic than that. I would want in the future to have a variable named MyFriend, of class Friend. Also, when building linked lists, for the link data items, or accessor methods, I tend to use 'Next' and 'Prev'.

Thu 02 Sep | AllanL5 | Oh, and when your link field is a reference to an object, that's what it is SUPPOSED to be. You are not supposed to jump through hoops to get a 'real' pointer in there.

Thu 02 Sep | bpd | '[...] the field is not really a pointer. It is an object. [...] not a real pointer.' It is not an object, it is a pointer (or reference) to an object. The 'VB way' would be to declare it as MyFriend.

Thu 02 Sep | Bored Bystander | Sathyaish, I recall from a previous thread that you are curious about linked lists as a concept and you have never implemented one. Trying to implement one in VB will obscure the essence of a linked list with typecasting and other mechanical garbage. You need to work with pointers to 'see' what a linked list is doing. May I suggest an alternative approach: implement one in C. Use a non GUI approach like writing to the console using printfs() in order to see what things look like internally. In other words, select the tool(s) that will support learning rather than cluttering things up with a tool that isn't intended for the purpose. And lastly, it will be extremely easy to find examples of simple linked lists on the net coded in C or C++. I suggest that just doing it will be more instructive than putting all your incremental design decisions up for a group vote. It's the way I learned many moons ago, and it's quite effective...

Thu 02 Sep | trollop | I hate to drag in a possible irrelevacy, but what happens if your friend moves house - meaning: hardwired addresses (pointers) are OK if nobody moves. Consider the classic Bill of Materials schema: Parent|child|qty vs Parent#|child#|qty The former is more robust, but slower to execute. The latter more fragile, but potentially much faster. You're the designer, you choose. PS which maps to SQL faster?

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Hi BB, I agree with all that you have said. In fact, what I am doing is on purpose. I have read the code for linked lists in C already, and from more than three different books and a few places on the Net. I learnt about linked lists in the year 1996. I even taught a limited syllabus of C++, which also covered a chapter on linked lists, back in 1999. But I must admit, I do not know C++ well. I have code samples too. But I am doing this excercise because I want to see how it is going to be trying to simulate one where there is no support. Then, the plan is to do the straight-forward C code for the linked list. Next, will be a C++ class. And for C, as you have suggested, I'd already thought that I would first do a console app to test the linked list, because otherwise I would need to code a lot of UI in Win32 (which I know well) or MFC (which I don't know very well). I know pointers well. What I am doing is an experiment. May be I don't have the words to explain. It's more like knowing something but still having a feeling of insecurity that you do not know much. There is more to be known. I want to master these concepts well. May be, at a sub-conscious level, I am doing these things over and over again as a preparation for my goal - to work at Microsoft. I posted this question because I was really divided in opinion over two of the three data types there. My plan after this is to practice the implementation of a hash table. Then I would move to the sorting algorithms (I mostly use Bubble Sort and Selection Sort, though I know a few others). Then, to compression and encryption, and so on. BTW, I have to still ask you a few questions on the previous thread. Only they are not in the forefront of my mind as of yet.

Thu 02 Sep | . | > May be, at a sub-conscious level, I am doing these things over and over again as a preparation for my goal - to work at Microsoft. Someone told me that a reason why MS use 'linked list' questions in their interviews is because a lot of the O/S code is written in C (which only old-timers know). So, Sathyaish, if you apply to Microsoft, will you be applying for a job writing O/S-level code? He also said that if you apply via HR, they receive a mountain of resumes and might take a year to get back to you: so, better to 'fast track' your resume, by giving it to a hiring manager via someone who already works there.

Thu 02 Sep | Lee | It's good that you're trying to learn this on your own, but wouldn't it be a more effecient use of your time to take CS101 & 102? That pretty much covers the topics you describe.

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | Thanks, dot. Actually, as a matter of fact, I have already applied to Microsoft. I applied in June this year and I have already have a HR phone interview from the recruiter. I am awaiting my next phone interview. No, I dare not apply for a position that would entail writing OS level code. I applied for the position of a Programming Writer - a someone who writes documentation for the next version of Visual Basic, and also some code.

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | A slight typo here: >I have already have a HR phone interview from the recruiter I have already had a HR phone interview from the recruiter

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | >It's good that you're trying to learn this on your own, but wouldn't it be a more effecient use of your time to take CS101 & 102? That pretty much covers the topics you describe. Yes, it would. But I can't leave my day job. But I've read all the PDFs from the Stanford University CS website. And I have two good books on data structures that I read a little by little when I get the time. Besides that, I have K&R, which I have never crossed the 6th chapter of, because each line of that book is pregnant with meaning. And I don't want to miss out implementing anything in that book. In that book, I am stuck at the Polish Notation because I don't like it very much. Besides, that I have a lot of books on C, including one by Balaguruswamy, two books by Yashwant Karnetkar (Let Us C), one book on Johnathan Morrisson (C++ for Visual Basic programmers), and many more. I've read a few of these already. And I can write Win32 API programs well even without using a client such as Visual Basic. I love Win32 API very, very, very much. But them, the Win32 API is a platform and not a language, though it is implemented in C.

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | Space is not a premium anymore. Use the biggest data type, and give yourself the best possible option for upgrade in the future, as space is not getting smaller. All databases support large integers now, and the SQL INTEGER is the VB Long anyways. The User/User# problem will always be present. When I am designing a system from scratch, I pick the artsy 'pretty code' way (User#). However, a lot of systems are fully integrated with User, so you'd better be prepared to make a temp table to handle the associations, etc.

Thu 02 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | I wasn't really talking about the backend issues here, but thanks anyways. As you can see, http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=1777300 I don't perist the list to a database. I serialize it to an INI instead.

Thu 02 Sep | A.M. | 'each line of that book is pregnant with meaning. ' That is a beautiful quote.

Thu 02 Sep | K&R fan | 'each line of that book is pregnant with meaning. ' Agreed. My favourite is the last line on p92: #endif Almost Shakespearean in its understated eloquence.

Thu 02 Sep | ronk! | Sathyaish, I for one find your earnestness and enthusiasm very refreshing. As long as you have that you will go far.

Fri 03 Sep | Sathyaish Chakravarthy | >Sathyaish, I for one find your earnestness and enthusiasm very refreshing. As long as you have that you will go far. Thank you, ronk. It was very kind of you to say that. When I need motivation, I come back to words like these, and I am rejuvinated. >That is a beautiful quote. Yes. I like that phrase. I read it in a book a long time ago. From then, I say it when I need to. When someone tells me something that I think has a lot of meaning to it, I tell them that what they just said was pregnant with meaning. >Agreed. My favourite is the last line on p92: >#endif >Almost Shakespearean in its understated eloquence. You're my guy! Of all the #endif's that are so sweet, that one endif, the most extolled, sounds the most melodious; that one endif calls to me, and it lives on page 92. It's got the Shakespearian sound, as you say. Enddddddiffff...what a rythm! Like it were an iamb. That #endif on p92 is being talked about a lot these days on comp.lang.c. And I believe Nostradamus also devoted a quatran to the #endif that was going to be written on page 92. He said it would unite two war-waging super powers. I recieved an email from a user on this board called 'A Friend'. He sent me a link to a book on data structures and algorithms. I sent my thanks to him by replying to his email but I guess his email was fake, so I'd like to thank him here. A Friend, thanks so much for that book. It means so much to me.

New discussion board software | Thu 02 Sep | Carnage & Green Goblin

Joel writes: I think probably the biggest visible change will be that when you post something, youll be able to provide a URL that your name links to. Am I the only one that feels that this big change would take about 5 minutes to code? Maybe 10 minutes if you sipped on a cup of coffee? What do you need to do anyway? Add another field called PosterURL in the database, then add code that will make it an [PosterName] fragment of markup and insert that into the threads? Hell, I couldve finished that in the time I took to type this message. Whats the big deal?

Thu 02 Sep | muppet | You're not allowed to post about it. Your thread will be deleted.

Thu 02 Sep | Ken Ray | Just what the world needs - yet another duscussion board software. How many wheels do we need to (re)invent? Are there any why phpbb or php-nuke can't be used?

Thu 02 Sep | muppet | Err.. Ken, with all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The OP isn't creating new software.

Thu 02 Sep | a cynic writes... | Funnily enough, since Joel mentioned this it may count as on topic and the thread not disappear (under the no talking about housekeeping rule). In the unlikely event that's the case: The reasons that Joel chose to write his own are set out in an essay 'Building communities with software'. More to the point, I suspect that the main reason behind the upcoming change is to make sure that posts are by the people they appear to be. ('Muppet' has been on the receiving end of this quite a lot recently). Whilst not a big change technically, hopefully it might cut down on some of the sillier flamewars

Thu 02 Sep | Wayne | Anyway Ken, existing message board software kind of sucks. Why doesn't someone make one with a tree menu for the threads instead of a flat list? I know I've seen it before, just not done very well and not used by many. Also, there aren't as many options for an ASP/ASP.Net message board as there are for PHP. I'd welcome a few additions there.

Thu 02 Sep | a2800276 | >>More to the point, I suspect that the main reason behind the upcoming change is to make sure that posts are by the people they appear to be.<< How would that help, instead of typing 'muppet' in the full name box, I'll also type 'http://muppets.url.com' in the URL box... I think the change is meant to cut down on signatures in the posts. -tim

Thu 02 Sep | muppet | I suggested creating some sort of off-site accounting of valid posts by an individual, with some sort of post-specific signature in the URL, to authenticate posts by X person. The thread was promptly deleted.

Thu 02 Sep | a cynic writes... | Their have been a number of suggestions like that all falling victim to: 'My policy in the past has been that 'off topic' includes any discussion of the forum itself, its design or usability. ' (from 'Building Communities...' again). Let's face it, it's touch and go whether this thread surivives. Tim - re-reading the original article I'm afraid you may be right. Ah well...

Thu 02 Sep | a cynic writes... | "There" not "their", "survives" not "surivives". My typing's getting worse.

Thu 02 Sep | Nemesis | tim: 'I think the change is meant to cut down on signatures in the posts'. Exactly. There have been a lot recently, and I wonder if Joel is concerned with his PageRank being diluted, or others getting a free ride. Given that your name will link to a URL, I guess that's the end of the email via the site feature, unless you specify your email address as the URL, which is unlikely. This is probably to eliminate spam via the forum and reduce the load on the server.

Thu 02 Sep | Just me (Sir to you) | 'How would that help, instead of typing 'muppet' in the full name box, I'll also type 'http://muppets.url.com' in the URL box...' Who says you could enter the resulting URL directly? You might have a GUID input field. The GUID translates to a URL serverside, that is returned on the page as a link under your name (where Joel has his 'Fog Creek Software' tag. You would get the GUID by email. Remember, for those that put in an email, Fog Creek can already discriminate multiple instances of the same handles (unless someone shared their email address). Getting the GUID proves access to the specified email inbox. URL's need to be unique, but that is a managable problem. Putting in a url without the GUID ) generates a request for a GUID linked to that URL. Variant A: Instead of the GUID one could use a passphrase supplied by the user. Name+passphrase+url then results in a link to te url, and a s before url's are handed out on a first-come basis. Advantage: no mailing involved, short latency Disadvantage: still no proof of email address ownership (ok, inbox accessibility) Variant B: Use the email field as discriminator. Major disadvantage: everyone you send a mail to through the JoS system can now impersonate you.

Thu 02 Sep | Oren Miller | What in the world is going on here? Will no one read the next sentence? 'It's a small feature that I'm hoping will have a big effect on the anthropology of the discussion group.' So: 1) he says the feature is small, not big 2) he says right here why he is doing it

Thu 02 Sep | matt | Why not use phpbb or php-nuke? because they're both slow, bloated, over-done irritating pieces of crap with too many features for their own good. Quicker to write something simple and elegant yourself, than learn to configure crap like that into a state where it doesn't completely suck

Thu 02 Sep | Teller | Wayne said: 'Also, there aren't as many options for an ASP/ASP.Net message board as there are for PHP. I'd welcome a few additions there.' I'm fascinated by this topic...I've written a phpbb-style board for ASP. It's fast as blazes and doesn't have a lot of the clutter you often see with those other boards...email me for a beta account.

Thu 02 Sep | Alex | Plus I don't like it. How long before a 'male/female' radio button is added? And 'age'. Maybe 'Zipcode'. The possibilities...

Fri 03 Sep | John Clark | Interesting discussion. Slightly divergent, but a few years back, I decided to 'roll my own' discussion forum because at that time the alternatives weren't as fully-featured as they now are, and also because there were things I wanted to implement which most if not all fail to offer (still) such as unified topic views and the like. It's still running, albeit in the context of a call centre forum - www.callcentrevoice.com if you're interested (and I always appreciate any comments from other developers as it helps me plot the path forward) - but plugging that isn't what I want to do here. No, I am thinking of creating a community dedicated to the merry band of developers who actually have created (or plan to create) their own discussion software. Talking mainly over issues that crop up regularly - such as categorisation, optimisation, look & feel, etc. plus the softer-skills side like moderation and promotion. Can I poll to see if anyone would be interested in such a site? It'd be a free resource for everyone - no commercial intent as to be frank it's a hobby rather than a profession. OK, back to lurking for now... ;) John

What exactly is a stencil? | Thu 02 Sep | a random geek on the Internet

What exactly you get in your mind when you read or hear the word stencil? How would you exactly define a stencil? Sorry, Im not a native english speaker. I looked into many websites but I wasnt able to get a clear answer (even with google definitions).

Thu 02 Sep | . | A stencil is a flat piece of metal or plastic, with shaped holes cut out (typically letters or numbers). By moving a pen around the edge of the holes, you can draw the shape exactly.

Thu 02 Sep | Another Random geek from internet | In a wider sense, the material can be anything, even paper or fabric; and the painting does not have to be done only by a pen; in some cases, you can use a spray can instead. This is the most common use in day-to-day life. :-) The word is also used to mean an old kind of a copying machine; which used a stencil of waxed paper. You could use a typewriter or a pen to etch stuff on the paper, which was then used as a master copy to produce numerous copies (on paper), using a think ink applied through a roller in the machine. YOu may also go to http://stencilarchive.org/ , http://www.stencilrevolution.com/tutorials/ , or do a google image search for stencils.

Thu 02 Sep | a random geek on the Internet | If you cutout pieces from a piece of paper. Would that paper be called a stencil? And what about the cutouts? Can we also say that a stencil can help you cutout pieces from a larger surface? i.e. paper?

Thu 02 Sep | muppet | errr.. aren't the little pictures in Visio called 'stencils' in the manual?

Thu 02 Sep | Throwaway | yes, and in the application too....

Thu 02 Sep | Adrian | Incidentally, in realtime 3D graphics a 'stencil buffer' is an array of pixels, the same size as the screen, which can be used to perform 'cut out' effects. For instance, you could draw a circle into the stencil buffer, and then say 'draw a 3D scene on screen, but only where the stencil is NOT set', and you'd get a picture with a circular hole in it. Although this might seem trivial, you can perform a variety of operations using stencil buffers. They're at the heart of Doom 3's realtime shadows, for instance.

Thu 02 Sep | a random geek on the Internet | Adrian, isn't it called a mask? Probably, an inverted mask? Yes muppet, actually the way Visio uses this term made me wonder whether the stencil is the cutouts or the paper left after the cutouts?

Thu 02 Sep | Adrian | random geek: Yes, the action of selectively drawing based on a separate image that defines the "cutout" is often known as masking. I just wanted to point out that in realtime 3D (OpenGL or Direct3D) the mask is often called a stencil buffer, or stencil.

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | A closely related word for "stencil" is "template". A stencil is a specific kind of template used specifically in drawing, to trace around. i.e. I can use an ashtray as a stencil to draw a circle, if I trace around the ashtray. In visio, template shapes are called stencils, because they are for drawing.

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | When you cutout pieces, those are "patterns". If you use the patterns as an inverted "stencil" (i.e to NOT trace in the part you cut out), then they are "masks". I knew I got a fine art degree for a reason!

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | Sorry to repeat post again, but actually if you assemble cutout pieces into a single "pattern", then the individual pieces are "blocks", even though a single cutout piece can be used as a "pattern" as well. I'll stop now, before silicon valley transforms into the art district.

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | Deven, give us Philistines a link. If you don't know of one keep on explainng and then you can link to this thread in future.

Thu 02 Sep | A.T. | Yes, the visio objects are called stencils. I remember using a plastic flowcharting stencil way back when I didn't have grey hair. That's probably where the name comes from.

Thu 02 Sep | AllanL5 | Yes, a 'stencil' is a small flat piece of plastic with various symbol shapes cut in to it. It was intended that you would place it flat on a piece of paper and run your pencil or pen around the shape, to get that shape on the paper. In Visio, they have a 'Stencil' file (.VSS). This file holds a set of Visio Shapes, and can also hold VBA code. They also have a 'Template' file (.VST). This file can contain VBA code, menus, and references to stencil files. When a drawing is created using a Template, the Template is copied to the drawing file. The drawing uses the Drawing's copy of the Template file, but uses the links to the Stencil file.

Thu 02 Sep | devinmoore.com | OK, some art links to help explain it in fine art terms: http://www.artlex.com/ - has definitions like the one below. I would use this one first, then hunt for other places if it's not there. http://modernsculpture.com/glossary.htm - much shorter, relates more complex art words back down to words like stencil. http://www.progressiveart.com/art_terms.htm - yet more terms... art is complicated! artlex definition of stencil: 'stencil - Stiff paper (or other sheet material) with a design cut into it as a template for shapes meant to be copied. Ink or paint forced through the design's openings will produce a print on a flat surface placed beneath. The design need special to producing a stencil: balance the requirement to cut out most of the desired shapes against maintaining the strength of the loosest parts of the stencil. The relationship between the positive and negative spaces is best when no part of the sheet is damaged or lost in its use. In lettering stencils, for instance, the centers of such letters as A, B, D, O, and P are some of the shapes most likely to have this problem. The 'bridges' holding these 'islands' in position are the chief characteristics of stencils. Art in which stencil letters are used often make reference to flatness, cheaply hand-produced signage and package labeling, among other common applications. Patterns and other designs are also painted as stenciled architectural decorations. Pochoir and silkscreening (or serigraphy) are types of stencil processes. Also, the image produced, and the process of making it.' (lots of linked words on the real page)

Thu 02 Sep | . | Re the 3D stuff, stencils are implemented in the GPU which means they're fast. Also they can can have properties additional to 2D surfaces, which differentiates them, partly, from the concept of a "mask."

Thu 02 Sep | Confused | I'm old enough to remember mimeograph stencils. Let's just say that the copy machine was a really great idea. Hats off to Xerox.

Thu 02 Sep | Anonymouse | I'm old enough to remember sniffing the old mimeograph copies in grammar school. At least, I think I remember... Mmmm... Mimeographs...

Fri 03 Sep | Stephen Jones | It used to have to type stencils on an old manual Underwood from the 1930s and then run off the copies from a machine in my bedroom. A second vote for the photocopy machine!

Music, mp3's, etc. | Thu 02 Sep | hoser

Who woulda thought that something like the iPod would be so popular? Certainly not me. I rip CDs - which I buy mostly at Half Price Books, since most of the music I like is being recycled - and keep copies on my laptop and work PC. So now Microsoft is looking to enter the iPod game with their own version. What do you think? Another success story? If so, why? If not, why? Why did portable music become so big? I mean, whoopee. I dont quite get it.

Thu 02 Sep | TheGeezer | Portable music is all about convenience - pure and simple. Not sure about MS entering the game but you can be they'll throw tons of money at it (like that have done with the X-Box which hasn't exactly been a runaway commercial success). I guess the good thing about them entering the game is lower prices for the consumer because of competition.

Thu 02 Sep | TheGeezer | >>but you can be they'll throw D'oh - that should read 'you can BET they'll throw...'

Thu 02 Sep | SW | Yeah, but knowing Microsoft, they'll go overkill and try and make it an all in one media machine. By adding video support, wireless internet support, and a nice massage feature, they'll create a product that's expensive, poor on power management, and suited only for a select few tech heads who must have the latest and greatest...That's just my prediction.

Thu 02 Sep | www.marktaw.com | I already said it in this forum. MP3 players are the universe's way of balancing itself. The 28 albums you would've bought if you didn't download them now cost you $400 to listen to.

Thu 02 Sep | Prakash S | Mark, that is one of the best lines I have heard. Maybe we can sell the record companies on that:-)

Thu 02 Sep | TheGeezer | A portable MP3 player that doles out massages will sell like gangbusters!! For a while there I was wondering whatever happened to innovation in these sorts of devices... :-)

Thu 02 Sep | no name | Portable music has been big since, well, the dayss of the transistor radio. Then the "walkman" type players, then the portable CD players. The all electronic version is just the next wave.

Thu 02 Sep | Ben | Since mobile phones are offering increased storage, media cards, bluetooth and wireless conections I can't see there being a need for stand alone mp3 players in the next few years.

Thu 02 Sep | Tom (a programmer) | Yeah, there will be hybrid devices, but just like some people still buy hi-fi separates some people will still buy separate music players, cameras and phones.

Thu 02 Sep | Sony Walkman | 'Why did portable music become so big? I mean, whoopee. I don't quite get it.' Where have you been since 1979?!

Thu 02 Sep | I am Jack's lack of a witty reference | I think any mp3 player's success now will be based mostly on the service that it is marketed with. Sure, some trendy 'style' brands will have a niche... But the broadest success will come from superior services. It seems to me that the RIAA's terrorism is working at least to some degree. Any player is worthless without good mp3's to go on it. More and more, if people can avoid the risk of any RIAA extortion or hassle, they will.

Thu 02 Sep | hoser | I've never owned a walkman. Hmm. Never saw the point. To be sure, when I'm outside, I want to hear what's outside. Even if its traffic and noise. The only time I listen to music is at work, or working at home.

Thu 02 Sep | Tayssir John Gabbour | Well, the addictiveness of music varies in people. (Same with brown bubbly sugarwater.) Consider the iPod a portable IV drip for a drug. Portable music has a huge market because it requires no interaction or literacy, and the music industry has exploited celebrity so that it satisfies peoples' needs for stories. Conspicuous consumption is also an issue. If you have an Apple product, it marks you as someone with good taste who doesn't run with the herd. (Which is kind of true, except for those who do it conspicuously, who are just posers.) Favorite bands are also chosen this way. ('Old Metallica is more to my taste; you know, before they sold out with the black album.')

Thu 02 Sep | sgf | 'good taste who doesn't run with the herd' er, more like different taste who runs with a smaller herd

Thu 02 Sep | Tayssir John Gabbour | Well, I don't own a mac, and I've only done some dev on them, but it's pretty clear it's a very quality system. No one is doing that kind of innovation. So even though I might not have an enormous reason to use them, I'd probably look well on someone who does. As long as they are being reasonable about it.

Fri 03 Sep | DryWell | I have a Neuros (http://www.neurosaudio.com/index.aspx) and I love it. I use WinAmp's Internet radio along with Streamripper to save off the MP3s. I can collect several hundred tunes over a weekend. I d/l them all and if I don't like it, I delete it, culling it back it back to what I like. Works great. Eventually the RIAA will pull the plug, I suspect, but until then it's how I get my music, besides ripping CDs which I've purchased. The Neuros has a feature where I can play tunes through a nearby FM radio. This works pretty well, although I live near DC where there are stations on partically all the channels. I understand in the latest firmware they've boosted the signal strength. Also, they've released the Neuros software into Sourceforge. FOSS is a good thing. Problem with Microsoft's store and player is that it's going to be DRM encrusted. No thanks. I'll stick with my MP3s. Besides, my general opinion is that if there are two products and one is Microsoft, I'll lean towards the other - especially if it's open source.

"The Joel Spolsky's of the world" | Wed 01 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob

...will run your work life. This was stated in the thread why code. AHHH! RUN! DICKENSIAN HORRORS!!! YAHHH!! SCREAM!! I find this to be one of the most amusing non-threats ever invented on this board. Comments?

Wed 01 Sep | fortune from a coookie | There are large brown starfish and warm moist climates ahead of you.

Wed 01 Sep | Bob's your uncle | I think it's a very true statement. Joel has gone to great lengths to describe the wonderful hardware made available to his employees, but based on the arrogance I see in his articles, I can't imagine it can be much fun to work there. Your own fancy schmancy office with 20 outlets and dual 21 inch monitors doesn't mean much if your boss is a real a**hole to work for.

Wed 01 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob | People can come off quite differently in print than they do in person. I take all of his writings as external PR in the sense that I don't know what it would really be like to work with or for him unless I actually worked there. Besides - I haven't met ONE successful person in this business who didn't 'seem' arrogant to just about everyone except their closest friends.

Wed 01 Sep | Standby Robed | I am here long times and do not understand who I am.

Wed 01 Sep | Saprasadecceio | I read Joel a long distance and he my roll model.

Wed 01 Sep | whyBother | I did not mean that Joel is somehow a negative or bad or arrogant person. I mean that no matter how wonderful he is, or anyone in that position, having someone else tell you what to write and how to write is not the dream the programmers I know dreamt of when aspiring to this career. I am sure Joel is wonderful, relative to the others out there. But I still prefer to work for myself. It is very difficult for me to conceive how to get my own company. While 90% of building a viable business is hard work, the 10% that matters is luck. Any self-help book will tell you that you make your own luck. Just after so many years of working for someone else, so many failures of my own start-ups, I am left with declaring myself an eternal failure. I may lack brilliance, but when I compare myself and my ideas to others, I don't see how I am much different, except for the luck factor and the lack of worldly contacts that can assist me. So I must slave away underneath the Joel Spolsky's of the world, saving the pennies that are being slowly sapped from me by the government, the cost of living, and situations out of my control. Boohoo. Waaaaah. So what. This is a forum, I can bitch if I want to. Keep voting for Bush.

Wed 01 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob | I agree in some measure with what you're saying. We all want to have the greatest idea and be self directed. I think what you're 'against' is not so much the 'Joels' of the world as it is the notion of working for someone else besides yourself. Which is a different issue. And I still suggest that what makes Joel an easy target for accusations of being arrogant is that he's so visible. I've found that some lesser-visible technical types embedded within commercial companies, who don't write or have any public persona, can be REAL pricks to deal with. There are people out there that you have NEVER heard about who are probably 100x as insufferable as Joel could be. I know; I've worked for 1/2 of them. ;) However, my experience indicates that working for someone from a different mindset than development or engineering can be truly hellish. IE: instead of compromising with a fellow techie who happens to have veto power over your decisions, you wind up creating sh*t-on-a-disk for someone who whipsaws you constantly, who doesn't respect the process or your skills, etc. Sales people, and ex-managers from manufacturing backgrounds (autos, capital goods) can be REAL assholes to work for... their entire approach can be 'you're just an overpaid secretary.'

Wed 01 Sep | Standby Robed | Saprasadecceio, you are my roll model longs time. Are you thinking large great softwares things?

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | I'll praise Joel if and when he hires a female project lead. Until then, he's just another manager.

Wed 01 Sep | . | 'I'll praise Joel if and when he hires a female project lead.' Wow, kudos on the extreme sexism. Joel has what, 8 employees? And he's 'just another manager' unless he hires a female project lead? Pathetic. You, maam, are worse than hitler.

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | Great rationalization for excluding females. Yes, I'm the bad person, not the chauvinists.

Wed 01 Sep | traf gib | Joel is gay. Does sexual orientation count for anything?

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | No.

Wed 01 Sep | . | 'Great rationalization for excluding females.' Uh, great rationalization for racism. 'I demand 50% whites in the NBA!' Joel's shop is hardly large enough to be an equal representation of society. Idiot.

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | Name calling to get your point across is brilliant. Hire women, it is the right thing to do. Think about that the next time you bitch about how you can't find a girl that wants to dangle from your mini-schlong.

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | If Joel is so great, and hires only the most brilliant people he can find, and somehow wishes to set his workplace apart, he should consider actively recruiting females to work there. The best places to work are also the most diverse. But then, I've worked with all guys....it was great....we got along just fine, I got great code reviews from my peers, blah blah blah, but when the group wanted to go river rafting, I was mysteriously not invited. They said 'Oh, don't be insulted. It's just for the guys!'

Wed 01 Sep | flamebait sr. | Given that there's very little documentation at all about the other employees, it's probably dumb to talk about the makeup of fog creek. But, really, I work at a place where we've got no active threads of gender discrimination, not in the slightest. And we still have a heavy male majority. There just aren't that many female engineers out there to begin with. And at FlameBaitCorp, they do have women project leads and managers.

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | There's only 10% blacks in the US, why should we hire any of them?

Wed 01 Sep | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | Irig, stop your trolling and get your 13 year old ass in bed, huh?

Wed 01 Sep | yob taob | lrig, Will you go river rafting with me?

Wed 01 Sep | Saprasadecceio | I am liking women but they are not for developmnt of great softwares.

Wed 01 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob | How the hell did my "lukewarm endorsement of Joel thread" turn into "militant female variety hour"?

Wed 01 Sep | Anon-y-mous Cow-ard | ...and Bobs your uncle!

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | 'lrig, Will you go river rafting with me?' No. Too late.

Wed 01 Sep | yob taob | 'No. Too late. ' Smoke a joint maybe?

Wed 01 Sep | z | >>>There's only 10% blacks in the US, why should we hire any of them?<<< The great thing about random events is that you can find just about any pattern you want to in them if you look hard enough and at a small enough subset. Suppose hiring was done on basis where an individual's sex, race, religion, age, and all those usually irrelevant factors were not considered. That is, the distribution of those characteristics among employees was purely random. Then for some factor that occurred in 10% of the population a small company of say 8 employees would have a 57% chance of hiring one of those individuals. Put another way 43% of those 8 person companies will not have an employee with this particular characteritic. If you want to believe that there is active discrimination going on, you just find one of this 43% and claim they are an example. I've been around long enough to have seen and been the target of discrimination. Even here on JoS one poster admitted to discriminatory hiring in the past and I would have been one of the people he would not have hired. But if you want to complain about discrimination and be taken seriously you need to show you understand the difference between actual discrimination and randomness.

Wed 01 Sep | lrig | 'You won't get a job with my company because statistically speaking, I don't have to hire you nor do I feel the need to show I am an exceptional manager because of my hiring practices because I can therefore hide behind the statistics. I can purport to be all knowledgeable and share my opinions with the world and never feel any obligation to enrich the lives of those who have been formerly excluded. I can also hide behind my openness about my sexuality because people will assume I must be sympathetic to the plight of minorities without me ever having to actually demonstrate.' If Joel is exceptional, he will go out and find the exceptions.

Thu 02 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob | Regardless of Joel's 'stock', he's just this guy running a profit making business. He's not a one man social equality facilitator.

Thu 02 Sep | lrig | YACO. Yet Another Cop Out. As a renter, I can easily justify not sweeping the front porch and let the crap accumulate. Or I can go out and sweep it.

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | Dear lrig, Problem solved. Joel can hire you to sweep the floors and make the coffee. If you lose your attitude, and get into mini-skirts and make-up, he can promote you to receptionist. Who'd accuse him of sex discrimination then?

Thu 02 Sep | redguardtoo | I have worked for a woman project manager. She is not a good manager because she hates coding. I also saw some successful woman project manangers and woman engineers. Until now, I observed no difference between man and woman in software development business. Ok, maybe there is still little difference. IMHO, More man project managers are easy to be arrogant. redguardtoo http://www.d2ksoft.com

Thu 02 Sep | a2800276 | lrig, Do you really think anyone should hire women, just for the sake of hiring women? A company with 8 employees doesn't really have the luxury of employing all the under- and misrepresented groups in society. Sure it'd be nice if more women, racial minorities, handicapped, excons, gays, foreigners, dyslexics, homeless, ADD-sufferers and whatnot get hired... But shouldn't they be hired on basis of their merits and not on the basis of their being underrepresented in the workplace? -tim

Thu 02 Sep | Just me (Sir to you) | 'Hire women, it is the right thing to do.' Why?

Thu 02 Sep | no name | He should hire stupid people to make up for all those companies which only hire "smart people" who "get things done".

Thu 02 Sep | Bill Rushmore | Has Joel actually published that he doesn't have women working for him? I think if you worked for Joel, where smart and got things done, you could tell him to f' off and he won't care as long as you got things done, smartly.

Thu 02 Sep | Kenny | joel's company is small enough that gender equality is a non-issue. ++I mean that no matter how wonderful he is, or anyone in that position, having someone else tell you what to write and how to write is not the dream the programmers I know dreamt of when aspiring to this career. isn't joel a programmer? isn't he living his dream?

Thu 02 Sep | . | lrig is obvoiusly mad because they sent in a resume and didn't get selected. Pathetic. It's reverse discrimination because they're trying to leverage their position for special attention. Fuck that.

Thu 02 Sep | cowardly anon | This feminist hogwash boils my blood. Noone should ever be hired because they fill some kind of race/gender quota. Men have allowed women to get out of control with all the women's rights bullshit. Call me chauvinist or what the hell ever you like. I really don't care, because you are either a woman or a pussy. There is a natural order to things. Women and men have ALWAYS been equal. Just because our natural places in society were more gender-defined and adhered to, didn't make the notion wrong. Women's rights destroyed the family and ultimately is to blame for the moral decay of society. Mommy has to work now so that she is 'empowered'. Who needs a family anyway? And I have to throw this odd twist of irony in... See what having a working mother did to me???

Thu 02 Sep | lrig | 'Women's rights destroyed the family and ultimately is to blame for the moral decay of society. Mommy has to work now so that she is 'empowered'. Who needs a family anyway?' No, Reagan regime hastened the arrival of the two-person income based economy such that now both parents almost have to work unless they are excessively frugal. Blame the right people for society's ills.

Thu 02 Sep | eeh eeh | lrig is a llort.

Thu 02 Sep | a cynic writes... | A general question: what aside from competence would be a reasonable reason to discriminate? and what *objective* criteria would everyone apply to say a particular group needs help? (for example in the UK unemployment amongst men is higher than women. Should positive discrimination be used to restore the balance?)

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | Dear cynic The reason unemployment is higher among men is that overall women are discriminated against in the workplace with lower wages and less job security - the result is that unscrupulous employers prefer to hire them. The solution to your conundrum is to sort out that underlying inequality - treat the disease not the symptom. That are plenty of cases where I would encourage positive discrimination. However employing women as programmers is not one of them; the reason is that the problem occurs earlier in the education system - there are few women employed as programmers because few women choose programming as a career. Incidentally I have come across strange variations on the theme. For one year I taught in the industrial city of Igualada ('mala parada' as folklore says) which is the kind of industrial city that you find in the Mid-West with the attitudes that Bored Bystander describes so well. One of the students I knew was a young girl with a fabulous talent and love for English Literature; however she was forced to study Engineering at University because her idiot bore of a father didn't want any of his children studying arty-farty crap.

Thu 02 Sep | bob mim | "arty-farty crap" never put food on the table.

Thu 02 Sep | It's me... | Stephens Jones, ----didn't want any of his children studying arty-farty crap.---- So true, this is here in India too. Personally, I don't like females who claim that they are in all aspects equal to males and are discriminated in some way or the other. Fact is they have their own strengths and weaknesses and so does males. They can be suited for one job, but not at all suitable for another job. As far as I am concerned, I have never seen a good female programmer. Because mostly they don't have the aptitude for them.

Thu 02 Sep | cowardly anon | If women wouldn't have been allowed to vote for Reagan, his economic policy would be a non-issue :P Just kidding, couldn't resist..... I agree wholeheartedly that Reagonomics did nothing for americans' socio-economic health. I see the two-person income standard as more a symptom than a pathogen itself though. Competition for jobs is why companies can pay so little that two incomes are required. It's fairly obvious that women's fairly recent assimilation into the workforce plays a significant role in increasing competition, and therefore, lowered compensation. It's supply and demand. I am not blaming women, nor do I think badly of them. I don't think women are any 'less' than men. As a matter of fact, there are few things I find as enjoyable as an intelligent woman's company. More traditional roles simplay have more merit. It's not like they were solely draconian principles based on religious half-truths or anything. That social structure had practical, functional utility and reason. What overall benefits to society does women's abundant presence in the workforce provide? What overall benefits to society are provided when the majority are housewives? I'm well aware that it is not practical for every woman to instantly become a housewife. I will not hold my breath, but I do think it would be in man AND woman's best interests to return to more traditional gender-defined roles to at least some extent. I could rant on and on about how the androgynization of society is killing it. Hell, even the ideal female form ('ideal' only because it is marketed as such) in America is prevalently androgynous! Alas, I spare thee from my ramblings...

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | ---'arty-farty crap' never put food on the table. '---- Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air. But don't let simple facts get in the way of a good prejudice.

Thu 02 Sep | bob mim | 'Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air.' In one way or another, they are all living off the taxes dollars that come from common working folks.

Thu 02 Sep | Stephen Jones | Load of balls! How is a fine art expert at Sotheby's living off your tax dollars? Or a copy writer at an ad agency? Or a network TV or Hollywood script writer? And how is a literature professor's source of income different from that of an engineering professor? In fact the proportion of engineers who live off tax dollars is probably higher than that of nearly any other comparable profession. Roads, bridges, railways, guided missile systems, space exploration, meteorology.

Thu 02 Sep | Kenny | as if we have any choice in the matter... patriarchal societies only work if physical strength is a commodity. male dominance was doomed ever since machines started doing a lot of the grunt work... look for a matriarchal society if (when?) men are no longer needed for reproduction...

Thu 02 Sep | bob mim | >>'How is a fine art expert at Sotheby's living off your tax dollars? Or a copy writer at an ad agency? Or a network TV or Hollywood script writer?' They're all subsidized in one way or another. It's just like pro sports; tax payers subsidize stadiums and other facilities. The fat cat owners are subsidized with the taxes from hard working floks. It's the same with the artsy fartsy crowd.

Fri 03 Sep | Stephen Jones | Dear Bobmin What makes you think that artists, writers, archaleogists and all the other people you mention don't work as hard as you?

Fri 03 Sep | a cynic writes... | Hi Stephen - I sort of knew the reason for the difference in unemployment rates - I was trying to see if anyone bit. The other point was that the thread seemed revolve around 'I'm in group x, therefore I'm hard done by' which is a non-runner as far as I'm concerned. What I was looking for was some rigour to back it up - I suspect a long wait.

Fri 03 Sep | senkodemayo | Z, The misunderstanding of the statistical issue is why many small company's are exempt from a lot of the employment law. Here in Massachusetts, many of the discrimination laws don't kick-in until the company has more than 25 employees. This protects the small business owner from baseless discrimination suits. My shop has 10 developers - all male. Out of all the resumes we receive, less than 5% are from women.

Fri 03 Sep | Rednatsyb Derob | >> 'Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air.' >> In one way or another, they are all living off the taxes dollars that come from common working folks. I would be f*cking OVERJOYED if the waste of my tax dollars was limited to PBS and NPR. (note to non US folks: these are the government sponsored TV and radio 'public' networks in the US, with decidedly liberal slants just to p*ss off conservatives. But they are also quite good many times. I think the PBS-NPR/public funding of the arts is the emotional pushbutton here.)

Fri 03 Sep | It's me... | -----What makes you think that artists, writers, archaleogists and all the other people you mention don't work as hard as you?------- Simple! Because they don't whine at forum like these, complaining, other's are stealing their jobs. And how tough life can be to them!

Gradudate School | Wed 01 Sep | David Seruyange

Hey all - So what is the value of a graduate education in computer science? Like many (I suspect), my job and career came from the boom and my undergraduate degree is not in computer science. Ive spent a lot of time studying various aspects of CS (Data Structures, Languages, and so on) as a programmer for personal and professional enrichment but I wonder if Im missing out on a lot. Ive thought about just going through the carriculum on MITs Open Courseware (http://aka-ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/) and staying a professional rather than going back to school. Only problem is I dont want to be relegated to boring problems - it would be cool to do programming that was more sophisticated than business/database development. But Im sure there are some here who have either gotten their graduate degrees w/ out the undergrad background or spent time thinking about it. Any conclusions? Is it worth it?

Wed 01 Sep | devinmoore.com | It's definitely worth it if you want to work in research and development - the ph.d is like a r&d bus ticket, you need one to get on that particular bus.

Wed 01 Sep | AllanL5 | I got my Master's in CS from Johns Hopkins on a part-time basis. It has been very helpful in getting jobs, and in increasing my credibility in software development. I studied applied Software Engineering principles -- 'Structured Analysis', 'Compiler Design', 'Embedded Programming', 'SW Dev under Unix', 'Database Design', that sort of thing. I definitely wanted a degree that included skills, not just theory, and Hopkins delivered that. Since it was part time, I kept my full-time job, and the classes were paid for by my employer. I still run in to the catch-22 of software work, where if you don't have 5 years of experience in exactly the pigeon-hole your new employer is interested in, they won't hire you. Still, Hopkins gives me credibility.

Wed 01 Sep | Dave | It depends what you mean by graduate school. Do you mean a master's or a PhD? My sense is that most CS master's programs (especially at non-elite universities) are geared towards foreigners (Indian and Chinese) with undergraduate degrees from their home countries who are getting a master's either on their government's dime or as a way to get a leg up on the immigration process. I have a buddy who is a prof in the CS department of a selective university (you'd recognize the name) who told me their master's program is basically a tool for squeezing enrollment dollars out of foreigners, with little in the way of real pedagogy. Point being, I'd think long and hard about getting a CS master's on my own dime. I've never done grad work in CS myself, of course, but my sense is that as a credential, the MS doesn't get you much professionally, and you probably won't learn anything you couldn't teach yourself faster and cheaper. PhD is a different story, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Wed 01 Sep | Dave | Of course, I missed Allan's post above....if I could get an employer to pay for it, I'd do a master's in a heartbeat.

Wed 01 Sep | Jeff Kotula | I earned my PhD while working full time over the course of 9 years. I did it primarily because I'm interested in teaching as a pre-retirement career, but I'm staying in industry for the nonce. PhD programs are geared toward doing research. Ideally, the program will teach you how to do it, but your milage varies between schools. Having a PhD, though, is not an immediate 'in' to the research world, just a prereq. Top tier schools require a great deal of publication and proven results before considering you. Middle tier less so, teaching schools don't -- but they also don't have money to fund research. I was happy and pleased to earn the PhD. I think it may have helped me in my industry career and certainly holds the door open on some other career options. But it is a lot of work to get. If you're interested more in just advancing your level of knowledge and not necessarily in research, an MS might be better. Note that you don't need to be doing 'research' to be working on more interesting products...

Wed 01 Sep | Erik | I'm finishing up my MS, to be complete next year. I'm in it to expand my knowledge and also for helping me up the career ladder, especially when some high level positions at some companies require an MS. In any sense, it definitely looks good on a resume. If you're planning to do research, then I would suggest a Ph.D. instead. If your employer will help pay for it, it's definitely a bonus. Unfortunately mine won't pay unless the courses can 'be immediately applied to be job', whatever that means. My previous one was to chicken-shit to pay for anything. Just don't go into debt over it - it's not worth it. I know people I went to undergrad with 10 years ago who are still paying off their education.

Wed 01 Sep | Sgt. Sausage | Gradual School: 'Oh! Well, Gradual School is where kids go and then gradually realize that they don't want to go to school anymore.' -- Robin Williams (as Garp -- The World According to Garp) Seems to sum it up for me!

Wed 01 Sep | Ron | I thought it's where they go when they don't know what they want to do in life.

Wed 01 Sep | Sgt. Sausage | Ron, I see a lot of that too!

Wed 01 Sep | David Seruyange | If I could find a way to get my employer to send me to Johns Hopkins for a Master's in CS, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, being a consultant means a lot of travel which eliminates the option of a program like that. I think Dave is right in saying that many programs are designed for enrollment dollars. I am not American (my passport is Ugandan) and I would therefore have to 'demonstrate' the ability to pay for the program up front. When Americans themselves can't pay for grad school upfront (ie. lots of loans/federal aid) how in the world can Africans and other 'Third World' students hope to? I guess if their fathers are dictators or corrupt government officials this might be the case but unfortunately that's not all of us. I guess that's the summary eh? Do it if someone else is paying for it or if your immigration so inclines you. As for the PhD stuff, that would be fabulous but it's a bit further along I think. I always laugh when I hear people talk about 'real world' stuff versus academia. I've just been given the task of writing a specification for a file import process. We argued over correct 'CSV' formats. I'd rather be building robots.

Wed 01 Sep | Voodoo | what are the best schools for a Masters?

Fri 03 Sep | Postgrad Student | I just graduated with a degree in CS and am now going on to do a MSc at LSE in London. The course seems quite general but I guess I am mainly going for their reputation and the better job prospects that LSE graduates undoubtedly have. If anyone is interested I can keep you posted.

Fri 03 Sep | Postgrad Student | http://is.lse.ac.uk/course/default.htm

Winnable Solitaire article | Wed 01 Sep | Thom Lawrence

Erics MSDN article on Winnable Solitaire is out: http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dnsoftware/html/software09012004.asp Cant wait to see the sales figures myself. :)

Wed 01 Sep | Dennis Forbes | Wonderful article. The only downside to the experiment is that we know that it's an experiment. 'I am primarily doing this product as an experiment, but the product is still very real. I'm selling it to real people and I'm charging real money for it. You can check out my product Web site.' This could skew sales figures. Recall the Stephen King online book that was poised to be the watershed to legitimize or ostracize tip-jar style online sales. At first it did great because every Slashdotter trying to prove a point lined up to contribute, but soon enough sales collapsed when the traditional prisoner's dilemma kicked in.

Wed 01 Sep | Ron | Nah, I don't think his target market (such as it is) reads MSDN. But I predict one sale per month.

Wed 01 Sep | Nemesis | I wonder how many of Eric's Google AdWords will get used up by MSDN, etc readers searching for his ad in Google.

Wed 01 Sep | Dennis Forbes | 'But I predict one sale per month.' Heh, I am equally cynical about the market for this, which is what makes me think that as an experiment it is so easy to significantly skew -- if just one of us enjoys Eric's writings, feel that it's a pretty funny experiment, and runs over to his webpage and humorously ponied a couple of bucks to it, that could significantly alter his sales (of course Eric is sitting in the darkened corner laughing manically whlile the loads of humor purchases come rolling in by the couples a year). A better experiment would have been blind (it would have added intrigue too - somewhere out there there's a shareware project by a mysterious backer that is actually Eric Sink). Let's face it - this isn't an experiment, but is rather Eric's take-over-the-world fallback plan if Team Services is a great success.

Wed 01 Sep | Nemesis | But doesn't Team Services include a Solitaire function...? ;-)

Wed 01 Sep | Ewan's Dad | 'But doesn't Team Services include a Solitaire function...?' Hmmm...'team' and 'solitaire'...

Wed 01 Sep | Edward | Yes, but when has anything involving "Team" been winnable? ;-)

Wed 01 Sep | Just me (Sir to you) | This could skew sales figures. Recall the Eric Sink Solitaire game that was poised to be the watershed to legitimize or ostracize competing against a product already free in Windows from day one.? At first it did great because every softie trying to prove a point lined up to buy, but soon enough sales collapsed when the traditional prisoner's dilemma kicked in. (Sorry Dennis, couldn't resist)

Wed 01 Sep | no name | 'Yes, but when has anything involving 'Team' been winnable? ;-)' You mean besides football, baseball, basketball, team gymnastics...?

Wed 01 Sep | Edward | Anonymous, would you like a single or round-trip ticket?

Wed 01 Sep | www.marktaw.com | 'Nah, I don't think his target market (such as it is) reads MSDN.' Well if he isn't spending money on advertising, that sure would be a good way to get a lot of the free type.

Wed 01 Sep | Edward | How difficult would it have been to create a new website totally separate from the company site, with no references? With the advertising from MSDN, and the references to/from SourceGear, the sales results mean practically nothing. The legal issues that micro-ISV's have to deal with are different, since SourceGear owns all rights. Micro-ISV's have to battle customer hesitations regarding stability, and the 'Will this company be around in 3 months when I buy a new computer and my key won't transfer' issues. I developed shareware for a year or so, and this experiment doesn't address any of the major problems that were in my way. What is this experiment for? Why not just make up a new company (just costs a few dollars) and a new web domain? I just don't see the point here.

Wed 01 Sep | Thom Lawrence | 'I developed shareware for a year or so, and this experiment doesn't address any of the major problems that were in my way.' Out of interest, what were they?

Wed 01 Sep | Lou | I'd like to know what credit card processor would give him an internet-based account without getting the cardholder name, let alone address or zip. I don't think ANYBODY does that... sounds fishy to me! (Or maybe it's part of the "experiment" not to actually charge money, just tally results?)

Wed 01 Sep | Edward | Pretty much the points I mentioned ;-) There were hundreds of others as well, such as bug management, etc., but any ISV has these issues. Don't get me wrong -- I think it's all interesting, but I don't see what lessons could be learned from this. Eric?

Wed 01 Sep | Tayssir John Gabbour | It should probably have a version with a special installer that makes it a nice present. I couldn't imagine buying one for myself. You know, people could buy it for their favorite cubicle-dweller. There could be a setting where if you press ESC or any of the top bank of keys, it will quit as fast as possible.

Wed 01 Sep | Tayssir John Gabbour | Of course, the biggest thing on my mind is I never, never know what to get people other than a book, as presents. So I'm maybe just projecting.

Wed 01 Sep | Eric Sink | > Don't get me wrong -- I think it's all > interesting, but I don't see what lessons > could be learned from this. Eric? Maybe for you there are no lessons to be learned. After all, you said you've done shareware development already. I haven't.

Wed 01 Sep | no name | I think it will be very interesting to see Mr. Sinks stats. I don't believe the rhetoric generated from MSDN, his blog or this forum will skew his sales figures as long as he continues to market the game the way most shareware authors do. I also believe that the game in and of itself was barely ready to hit the shelves. Don't get me wrong, it is a good game and I like it. Maybe I will purchase the next version with upgraded cards and artwork. Polish is very, very important in a game. Most games are released once and must be done right and polished up the first time. No bugs, the best artwork you can afford, flawless operation on all systems etc, etc... I'm not talking about feature creep here, I'm talking about polish. That is where, I believe, Mr. Sink made his first mistake. (BTW: If you are reading this Eric, there is a minor bug in the game where you can click anywhere in the upper left corner (not just on the face down cards) and the next three cards will flip. If you consider that a bug.)

Wed 01 Sep | Matthew Lock | I like the way Eric put his money where is mouth was rather than just think up an opinion on shareware he actually tried has hand at it.

Wed 01 Sep | Lou | Eric, who's processing your credit card transactions?! If you're not collecting cardholder names and addresses, it sounds like you're trying to (illicitly) use a POS terminal which is going to be contrary to your terms of use with your merchant bank... and is going to bite you in the ass when they take back all their money once they find out! I suggest you check up on that.

Wed 01 Sep | Edward | I have no issue with that Eric. I learned a great deal from the experience; enough to pray that I never have to repeat it. ;-) Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your experiment is about then. If your goal is do walk in the footsteps of other sucessful shareware developers (not me), then why not do it anonymously? Seems to me you'd really have the experience that you're looking for? At the same time, you could comment in your MSDN column about the process, without revealing the actual product that you're developing and selling. Looking forward to the next column,

Thu 02 Sep | Simon Lucy | You don't have to collect address information to process credit cards online, the minimum required is the credit card number and the date it expires.

Thu 02 Sep | Colm Larkin | From the MSDN article: 'With Winnable Solitaire, I want to own the word 'winnable' in the mind of the market. That's the only attribute I'm seeking to own.' Say your main competitor is Pretty Good Solitaire. What happens if they spend a month or two and make Pretty Good Solitaire, Now Winnable. Is that your key differentiator gone, and now the differences between Winnable and PGS are in PGS' favour? If PGS did this, what would you do?

Thu 02 Sep | Simon Lucy | It wouldn't steal 'winnable' entirely, indeed it would validate it as a 'Good Thing'. Eric could then go and rename it as 'The Original Winnable Solitaire', so emphasising the ownership of that namespace. Compare this with 'Soft, strong and very, very long'

Thu 02 Sep | TommyA | >It wouldn't steal 'winnable' entirely, indeed >it would validate it as a 'Good Thing'. This might be the case for a ISV where the copycat may come to the market a significant time after the original, and the origin has had a chance to even been able to the owner of that namespace. In the micro-ISV space 'Pretty Good Solitaire, Now Winnable' could be hitting the market a fews weeks after 'Winnable Solitaire'. The battle could now be down to marketing and advertising, which would not be a nice for a micro-ISV.

Thu 02 Sep | Dennis Forbes | 'Most games are released once and must be done right and polished up the first time. No bugs, the best artwork you can afford, flawless operation on all systems etc, etc... ' A little gripe relating to this - a couple of days ago the wife got me Doom 3, and when I finally got a chance I brought it down to install on my workstation PC (where I work and selectively game at night). This PC is running Windows 2003 Server (legally) for a variety of reasons, such as IIS 6. My first surprize was when the installer informed me that it needs Windows 2000 or XP to run: Apparently the guy making the installer checked off the mandatory OS options, not realizing that there would be newer OS'. There is absolutely no technical reason why this won't run on Server, and I have the brains to shut down unnecessary services and to set foreground applications as prioritized, so there's not even a subjective reason to discriminate against Server. Anyways thanks to some web info I copied CD1 over to the hard drive, ran a vbs script that removes the OS check and finally installed it, choosing to install it at C:\Doom3, even though my 'home' drive is D:. Trying to launch it I'm surprized that it says that Doom3 can't be found...turns out it installed half of the game at C:\Doom3, and half at D:\Doom3. The moral? Don't leave your installation to a last minute hack job, and make sure it works properly on edge cases.

Fri 03 Sep | Chris Nahr | Um, Dennis? It's not unusual for games to refuse to install on unsupported Windows versions. Doesn't matter if your version is 'newer'. The reason is purely economic: their testers didn't test on 2003, their support people don't know anything about 2003, and any lengthy support call from a 2003 user completely wipes out the publisher's profit on that copy of Doom 3. So they prevent installation on unsupported systems, to be on the safe side.

Fri 03 Sep | Chris Nahr | In other words, this was quite deliberate, not a "last minute hack job", and you bet that they have not the least intention to support "edge cases". In fact they would very much love such edge cases not to buy their games in the first place since they're far too risky economically.

If Java doesn't have pointers... | Wed 01 Sep | Just Curious

how come it has a NullPointerException?

Wed 01 Sep | TheGeezer | Pass. They could have created a class called 'NullReferenceException' to indicate the same thing. What I want to know is, does it really matter?

Wed 01 Sep | Marvin | 'What I want to know is, does it really matter?' Does anything?

Wed 01 Sep | Captain Obvious | just cause you can't manipulate them doesn't mean they ain't there.

Wed 01 Sep | no name | it's just semantics

Wed 01 Sep | Koz | When people say 'Java doesn't have pointers', they mean these pointers: T[] t; *(t + 5); etc.

Wed 01 Sep | no name | Which is a bit of a b*stard in some ways. If you want to pass an array of "somethings" to a function you also need to pass an offset. In C you could just use a pointer to the place in the array where it starts and Bob's your uncle (again; he gets around a bit does your uncle).

Wed 01 Sep | Koz | Well, I just pass around java.util.List's. Haven't used an Array in ages. But whatever floats your boat ;)

Wed 01 Sep | Name withheld out of cowardice | Pass an offset vs a Pointer? What's the difference? You're passing one extra parameter either way. BTW, for people who miss this kind of thing in Java, check out the nio package with it's ByteBuffers. No pointers but you finally can have a reusable buffer to manipulate. On many OS you can even use allocateDirect to get a native buffer. Lot's of the fun with none of the overflows.

Wed 01 Sep | bigoted against java | He meant that instead of calling SearchNRecordsOfTheArrayStartingAtTheGivenPoint (foo, 5, 10); you can call search_from (foo + 5, 10)